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St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:36
  Old Post 20-07-2004 21:44 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Since you have what looks like Object Dock, St Leo, I'm surprised you haven't gone the whole hog and installed approcket, the Launchbar clone.


Well, I don't need yet another way to search Google and the folder exploration bit is useless fluff, but AppRocket seems like a good way to start things that don't fit in the dock.

alt+space, risk, enter
alt+space, tweak, enter
alt+space, scanner, enter
alt+space, sequoia, enter

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St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:36
  Old Post 20-07-2004 21:47 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Skanky Burns
Why the change, St Leo?


There wasn't enough contrast in the pure white fill. I tried colourizing with some success, but switching seemed simpler.

Anyways, what are you complaining about? This one has Grand Tetons-worth of spheres and hemispheres and ellipsoids and curves and whatnot. Isn't that what you are into?

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:36
  Old Post 20-07-2004 23:15
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quote:
Well, I don't need yet another way to search Google and the folder exploration bit is useless fluff, but AppRocket seems like a good way to start things that don't fit in the dock.


Having search engine fields in the browser is a waste of space.

Someone needs to make it more like Butler rather than a straight ripoff of Launchbar. Butler is a sine qua non for me. The file finding capabilities of this app mean that I never have to do anything other than press control space and type a few letters to find anything I need (contacts, files, bookmarks, email addresses). I'll be pissed if it ever stops development.

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Solver is offline Solver
Apolyton Duke Of Something
Latvia, Riga
Sep 2000
time: 07:36
  Old Post 20-07-2004 23:21 Visit Solver<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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Fear my desktop!

Nah, actually, don't, it's recently cleared up. Usually you'd see anywhere between 10 and 20 strange files on my desktop, zips and txts mostly, purpose of which I can not myself explain.

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Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
  Old Post 20-07-2004 23:32 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Having search engine fields in the browser is a waste of space.

My initial estimate is the stupid border you have around your window wastes 1000-1500% more screen space than a search field...

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:36
  Old Post 20-07-2004 23:38
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The "customizable and transparent border", how so?

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
  Old Post 20-07-2004 23:43 Visit Asher's homepage!
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Not just that, but how you don't have the window maximized.

Your example is brilliant: It takes up the same vertical space as, say, my Firefox configuration, as well. But it's got a fugly huge border, then a bunch of wasted space on all of the sides since it's not even maximized.

You cannot criticize screen usage when your OS is notorious for wasting it...

I'm talking about your browser screenshot in another thread in particular, but also the Spotlight thing (which is a neat kludge of something in the Longhorn alphas, combined with the categorized view from Windows XP...another Apple innovation).

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
  Old Post 20-07-2004 23:46 Visit Asher's homepage!
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And I think it could use a little work:

Why does thesaurus.com come up when you search for "cather"?...

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:00
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quote:
Why does thesaurus.com come up when you search for "cather"?...


Duh!

Because it contains all those letters, and I haven't set it to restrict itself to those letters in that particular order (it's quicker on my older machine).

quote:
Your example is brilliant: It takes up the same vertical space as, say, my Firefox configuration, as well. But it's got a fugly huge border, then a bunch of wasted space on all of the sides since it's not even maximized.


Maximizing windows is stupid, and getting stupider every day. Given that screens are getting wider, it's even dumber. If you have maximized windows, it is harder to drag and drop between them, and I often have several windows from several apps open at once, where I want to see them.

Besides, documents tend to be taller than they are wider, and screens just the opposite.

quote:
I'm talking about your browser screenshot in another thread in particular, but also the Spotlight thing (which is a neat kludge of something in the Longhorn alphas, combined with the categorized view from Windows XP...another Apple innovation


The spotlight thing just takes advantage of metadata search features that are already present in the Finder and have been so since 10.0. I agree that presenting it as something new is ridiculous, since it's just a new GUI for what is mostly an old feature.

And I fail to see how anything in that screenie takes up more space than yours. The search field disappears when you've done the search, and can be summoned by a keypress when you want it.

Go clutch at some other straws.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:03
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quote:
The spotlight thing just takes advantage of metadata search features that are already present in the Finder


See

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Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:05
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And I fail to see how Launchbar like apps have anything to do with Longhorn, since LB was originally a NeXTSTEP app.

Try again.

St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:12 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Having search engine fields in the browser is a waste of space.


Which is why I search Google by typing
g whatever whatever whatever
in Opera's addressbar.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:12 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Duh!

Because it contains all those letters, and I haven't set it to restrict itself to those letters in that particular order (it's quicker on my older machine).

Oh, I must be stupid. That possibility never occured to me, seeing as "c" doesn't appear in "thesaurus" 'round here...

[/quote]Maximizing windows is stupid, and getting stupider every day. Given that screens are getting wider, it's even dumber. If you have maximized windows, it is harder to drag and drop between them, and I often have several windows from several apps open at once, where I want to see them.[/quote]
In the occasions where you have several apps at once, you cascade. When you want to drag and drop while maximized, you can drag to the taskbar icon. It ain't hard.

quote:
Besides, documents tend to be taller than they are wider, and screens just the opposite.

Which is why you put tools on the left or right hand side of the screen (ie, the task pane in Office).

quote:
The spotlight thing just takes advantage of metadata search features that are already present in the Finder and have been so since 10.0. I agree that presenting it as something new is ridiculous, since it's just a new GUI for what is mostly an old feature.

Metadata searches have been part of PC operating systems since well before 10.0 too.

quote:
And I fail to see how anything in that screenie takes up more space than yours. The search field disappears when you've done the search, and can be summoned by a keypress when you want it.

Because nothing at all can occur in the wasted border? Duh?

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:14 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
See

Another classic example of an ambiguous interface from Apple.

"Search in everywhere" makes no sense.

What do the + and - do? Add or remove additional search constraints?

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:17 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
And I fail to see how Launchbar like apps have anything to do with Longhorn, since LB was originally a NeXTSTEP app.

Try again.

Who said anything about Launchbar and Longhorn?

All I'm saying is the idea of massive metadata is something computers are going to.

Spotlight is a half-assed attempt to steal Microsoft's thunder, but it's all marketing BS -- as you've said. It's nothing new.

What's in Longhorn is an SQL-based "filesystem". Directory structures will be secondary and for users who want to use the old system, other than that it'll be based off of SQL views.

Not only will searches be trivial and extremely powerful, but it'll make more logical sense too.

The problem is, this is extremely complex to do -- and Apple has never been good at that kind of stuff. They'll clone it at some point in 5-6 years...

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:18 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by St Leo
Which is why I search Google by typing
g whatever whatever whatever
in Opera's addressbar.

How easy is it to add those though?

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:23
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quote:
Oh, I must be stupid. That possibility never occured to me, seeing as "c" doesn't appear in "thesaurus" 'round here...


You must be, since the item is called "Dictionary.com - Thesaurus"

quote:
In the occasions where you have several apps at once, you cascade. When you want to drag and drop while maximized, you can drag to the taskbar icon. It ain't hard.


But it's unnecessary. And Cascading doesn't work properly.

quote:
Which is why you put tools on the left or right hand side of the screen (ie, the task pane in Office)


Which is the same on the mac.

quote:
Metadata searches have been part of PC operating systems since well before 10.0 too.


I know, which is why your making a fuss over it is so silly.

quote:
Because nothing at all can occur in the wasted border? Duh?


Uh? The border you can get rid off? The border that is transparent so that you can see what is going on behind it. The border of the window that disappears and appears based on whether it is the immediate object of attention.

That's pathetic, Asher. Usually you put up a better fight than this.

quote:
Another classic example of an ambiguous interface from Apple.

"Search in everywhere" makes no sense.


It does when it is contrasted with search in "Home"; "Local Disks"; and "Specific (i.e. customizable) Places".

quote:
What do the + and - do? Add or remove additional search constraints?


See, even you can get it.

St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:25 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
When you want to drag and drop while maximized, you can drag to the taskbar icon.


What on earth are you people dnding between applications anyway? All I ever dnd are files from the files pane of Windows Explorer to the folders pane of the same window.

Well, and tabs in Opera.

And icons on the desktop for cosmetic reasons.

quote:
Because nothing at all can occur in the wasted border? Duh?


I don't know about Butler, but I've set AppRocket to autohide. It only shows up when I hit Alt+Space.

St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:26 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
How easy is it to add those though?


The searches come with Opera out of the box. If you want to add new ones, you have to mess with search.ini, but I've never had cause for that.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:27
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quote:
Spotlight is a half-assed attempt to steal Microsoft's thunder, but it's all marketing BS -- as you've said. It's nothing new.


Spotlight is Apple doing something that Launchbar and similar apps have been doing for years, extended to things like email addresses. Who cares how it is accomplished as long as it works.

How about you bring this up in 2009 or whenever WinFS is supposed to ship? I heard that it was being scaled down for the Longhorn release.


Anyway, stop spamming and post a desktop.

ixnay is offline ixnay
ACS Staff: 'RoN' Content Editor
I <3 etna, omg disgaea fag
Jan 1970
time: 22:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:30 Visit ixnay<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by St Leo
quote:
Originally posted by Asher
How easy is it to add those though?


The searches come with Opera out of the box. If you want to add new ones, you have to mess with search.ini, but I've never had cause for that.


Opera comes with searches for Google, Amazon, and ebay (which are what I use the most).

I added Google Images to search.ini and it took me about 20 seconds to do.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:30
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quote:
What on earth are you people dnding between applications anyway? All I ever dnd are files from the files pane of Windows Explorer to the folders pane of the same window.


Text clippings, pictures, links, attachments, all sorts of stuff. Why go through the rigamarole of using the "save" and "insert commands, when you can just drag a pic from Safari into a Mail or document window? I've never seen the point in that.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:36 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
You must be, since the item is called "Dictionary.com - Thesaurus"

I've never, ever, seen a search engine whose default behavior is to match all character in any order typed...that's just a bit weird...

quote:
But it's unnecessary. And Cascading doesn't work properly.

What doesn't work properly about it?

quote:
Which is the same on the mac.

So what is the big deal about maximizing it?

quote:
I know, which is why your making a fuss over it is so silly.

I'm making a fuss over Apple acting like they're the most innovative company out there because of things like Spotlight...

quote:
Uh? The border you can get rid off? The border that is transparent so that you can see what is going on behind it. The border of the window that disappears and appears based on whether it is the immediate object of attention.

That's pathetic, Asher. Usually you put up a better fight than this.

The point isn't that you can get rid of it, it's that it's wasting screen realestate. It's a simple point.

You said the searchfield was wasting screen realestate, then you posted a screenshot which was about 50% blank/screen realestate.

What's so difficult?

quote:
It does when it is contrasted with search in "Home"; "Local Disks"; and "Specific (i.e. customizable) Places".

It still doesn't make sense, since obviously the point of the dialog is to use native English...surely you know enough English to realize it doesn't make sense.

quote:
See, even you can get it.

So if I click +, it'll allow me to add, say, a parameter for Filesize?

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:46 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by St Leo
The searches come with Opera out of the box. If you want to add new ones, you have to mess with search.ini, but I've never had cause for that.

That's kinda messy...

Here's how it's done in Firefox.

Attachment: search.jpg
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Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 00:59
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quote:
So if I click +, it'll allow me to add, say, a parameter for Filesize?


Did you not look at the picture?

As for the rest of your comments, you seem not to understand the obvious. Presumably, you think that the search field should take up the whole screen.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 01:06 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Agathon
Did you not look at the picture?

I'm asking you what happens when you click the "+" button. Does it bring up a new dialog? Does it add another parameter below it? Does it highlight this parameter making it active? How come I can click the - and +, one isn't greyed out?

It's a classic ambiguous interface. It would fail if you tried to turn in garbage like that in an HCI class.

quote:
As for the rest of your comments, you seem not to understand the obvious. Presumably, you think that the search field should take up the whole screen.

You're insane, and dense. A perfect Philosophy instructor if you ask me.

St Leo is offline St Leo
King of Scenario League
Member of the Apolyton Social Democratic Party
Jul 2005
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 03:36 Visit St Leo<br><img src=/forums/images/staff-icon.gif>'s homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Asher
I'm asking you what happens when you click the "+" button. Does it bring up a new dialog? Does it add another parameter below it? Does it highlight this parameter making it active? How come I can click the - and +, one isn't greyed out?


I would assume that the (+) replicates the matching criterion line.

Also, (-) is greyed out for all of them because there is only one instance of each of the possible criteria.

Agathon is offline Agathon
Prince
Leafs 4TW!! - CPA
Dec 2002
time: 00:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 04:07
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Not hard, was it St Leo?

Never mind. I remember Asher once argued that having a big, green "X" icon for Microsoft Excel X would confuse people (I'm sure Drake remembers that one).

Perhaps it only confuses IBM employees, and not philosophers or the rest of humanity.

Asher is offline Asher
King
Calgary, Alberta
Nov 1999
time: 22:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 06:54 Visit Asher's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by St Leo
I would assume that the (+) replicates the matching criterion line.

Also, (-) is greyed out for all of them because there is only one instance of each of the possible criteria.

I didn't even notice they were greyed out.

Classy design.

Agathon: Once you take some HCI courses, you start to have an eye for the thing. The green "X" excel thing was an example taking from the real world.

I worked at a retirement home, that'll teach you A LOT about interface quirks that people normally miss.

That dialog box is a mess.

St. Leo: Does the + replicate or does it just add another blank criterion line for that criterion? Does this become an AND or OR conjunction? Or is it a BETWEEN or NOT BETWEEN?

What we do know: It's a + or a -. How helpful.

DaShi is offline DaShi
Prince
The Taste of Japan
Sep 2000
time: 05:36
  Old Post 21-07-2004 06:57
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I still use the same desktop because it goes with my Lain sounds. I love having my computer sound like a Navi.

 
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