01-06-2004 01:00									#1
	What is more valuable, ENERGY or MINERALS? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Somebody in one of these posts said that energy is worth more than minerals because energy saved time, or something like that.

So, what's your opinions? Is concetrating on energy and hurry everything better than actually getting tons of minerals?

I came up with some advantages and disadvantages of each.

ENERGY

Advantages: Disadvantages:
--Saves time --Expensive
--Easier to obtain --Energy must be replenished

MINERALS

Advantages: Disadvantages:
--Constant --Eco-damage
--Don't have to be replenished --Takes time

So far, in my personal opinion, I like energy better.

	01-06-2004 01:15									#2
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Having both is better than having either alone:

Having some mins allows you to pay less to rush build
Having some energy allows you to help out smaller bases, or use minerals more efficiently.
Having lots of minerals alone is excessive most of the time, and prevents you from effectively distributing the excess
Having lots of energy alone can be sufficient, but only if you truly have a lot, since rush builds will be more expensive, particularly for units, and if you produce fewer than 10 minerals in any given base, rush builds will be twice as expensive, unless you wait for the base to accumulate 10 minerals.

Furthermore, each mineral costs at least 2 energy (except when exploiting upgrades).
Minerals are not subject to inefficiency.
Energy multiplies via commerce.

	01-06-2004 02:19									#3
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Chaos is right, you do need both. If you have so many minerals that you can produce any unit/facility/project in a single turn, energy's utility recedes into nothingness. However, for many things, that level of mineral income is impractical, due to income restrictions and the repercussions of eco-damage.

I did pick energy, however, because it is far more flexible, more easily magnified with facilities, commerce, can be used to increase tech, production, quell drones or further improve growth and economy.

	01-06-2004 03:28									#4
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Energy is more flexible - you can use it to build stuff, research stuff, bribe units, trade, make your Drones content... Minerals only build stuff.

Also its very easy to convert Energy to Minerals at a 2-->1 ratio, while Minerals to Energy is at best a 4-->1 ratio.

Given a choice between 20 minerals and 20 energy, I'd take the mins, but between 20 minerals and 40 energy, I'd take the energy.

-Jam

	01-06-2004 03:50									#5
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Early game, minerals, hands down, but as the game grinds on, energy becomes increasingly important.

In the early game, what energy you *could* get will be sorely hampered in any case, by restrictions and small empire size, rendering it insufficient (even with a dogged early game focus on energy) to do the sort of rushing needed to get infrastructure in place (thus, planned is an excellent early game gov choice....the industry bonus enhances that which is most important to the early game--minerals--at the expense of something you don't have a whole lot of during that period anyway--energy.

Once that infrastructure is in place though, energy's raw flexibility begins to really shine, enabling you to rake in the tech, build shell units and selectively upgrade your attack force, etc.

-=Vel=-

	01-06-2004 04:19									#6
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* Jamski takes the bold step of disagreeing with Vel*

On the contrary, I think Planned is only a good first game choice if you are unable to run FM.

And for the same reasons as you outlined.

Since you can easily get minerals early game - with a maximum of two mins/tile before restriction lifting, the quick terraforming of forests gives you 2-min-tiles from the very start - and it is harder to get energy - you argue on reducing mineral costs by a measly 10%.

I, on the other hand, think it more worthwhile to increase energy output by up to 100% by running FM. You end up building stuff faster by being able to rush to completion. Properly managed early-game FM is devastatingly effective, especially with Morgan, where the base tile returns (unlimited by output capping) can reach huge amounts very fast.

-Jam

	01-06-2004 04:39									#7
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I agree with Vel: it depends entirely on the situation. To say that one is always better than the other is to ignore the reality, like saying a bishop is always better than a knight in chess -- which is often but not always true! Some chess books and teachers will tell you a knight is worth 3 pawns and a bishop is worth 3.5. Don't buy into that! It's foolish. Or it's like counting cards in blackjack but you always play the same hand the same way. For instance the dealer shows a six, you have sixteen -- what do you do? Conventional wisdom says always stand on the hand. What if the count is extremely low, meaning there are few high cards? The dealer is likely to have a low total and pull to a high one. Translation: the dealer is more likely to win. However, you're less likely to bust by hitting your hand. What's your only recourse? Hit the hand!

In sum, don't assume given constants ("A is always better than B") are really constants. Therefore, I vote xenobanana.

- Kef

	01-06-2004 04:52									#8
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Energy is a pretty broad term, in that it can be turned into Ecs, Labs or both. Hell, you can even waste it on psych. It's critical at least in the early game, but later on once energy has given you some technologies you can substitute specialists to produce your Ecs & Labs & Psych directly. The only thing that specialists can't do that energy can is produce commerce income.

The only substitute for minerals are Ecs. I'm not as mineral crazy as some players, but I do make a point of getting some good mineral production early on and in no case do I stop chasing minerals until I have at least 10 minerals being produced in a base per turn. This allows you to at least rush buy every turn if you are rolling in the dough.

	01-06-2004 07:03									#9
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Let's clarify one thing here, the poll ask which is more important (which has practically already been concluded by now), so for any new posters who actually read the entire thread before posting, don't vote for xenobanana because you think you need both.

I just finished my 4th game. For those who know me, usually I never use crawlers, all I do is use hybrid forests and nothing else. Decided to change my mind. THe game was based on a heavy industry and mineral production. Near the end, I lost over 15 bases (huge map) due to mind worm attacks, even when the bases were population 20+, with tons of facilities, and 10-15 garrison units.

Ultimately, minerals are just not worth it. My economy was good, and my industry was better (thanks to the drones and Domai), but the eco damage was just too much, so I like the idea of building lots of small bases, that way you have less minerals but more energy total.

	01-06-2004 07:10									#10
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I prefer minerals - though that you need both is obvious. Ofcourse I'm a die-hard non-exploiter of crawler tricks, if your going to upgrade crawlers for cashing in, then energy is probably better. The cool thing about minerals, like when using genejacks etc is that you can build whole fusion shard choppers in one turn. It's expensive to rushbuy shard units, and even shell upgrading is pretty expensive at about 160 energy, and it takes more player actions and the chopper wont be available immediately for use. Same is true of facilities, altough they are cheap to buy it is downright convinent to be building orbitals in 2 turns with no intervention. High minerals also allows you to crank labs up to 80-90% and basically leave it there. Finally when your bases are cranking out 50+ minerals per turn, support costs become insignificant and you don't need clean reactors, except on formers/cheap garrisons.

However the more one obsesses over crawlers, the less valuable minerals become, simply because crawled enriched condensors support many engineers, the cash generated has more raw buying power than a borehole. Also crawled energy can be amplified many more times through the lab boosting SP's.

	01-06-2004 09:00									#11
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I don't think we disagree, Jamski...on the contrary, I'm an avid fan of early market, however....Market is only as effective as your early game infrastructure, and with the Morgan example, he's got no spiffy abilities such as a Police bonus to help mitigate Market's police penalty, which means at a minimum, rec commons everywhere before shifting to a Market stance (tho with Morgan, an early Market stance is not absolutely critical in any case, cos he can just run wealth and kick up the 1 energy per square).

But to *get* to that early Market stance, a short trip to Planned to help get the early infrastructure in place across the board can really make the difference....Planned/Wealth is even better in that regard. An excellent transitional model for three reasons: 20% cheaper crawlers in preparation for a big productivity spike, faster, cheaper early infrastructure at a time when you're sorely punished by restrictions, and in a tight race for SP's (especially if you're rabid about getting all of them!), that extra nudge can really make the difference.

-=Vel=-

	01-06-2004 09:26									#12
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I think new players would be more comfortable with Planned, which is why in the Social Engineering chapter of the wiki guide that I recommend that the player know what he's doing before using free market. Also the "-3 planet -5 police" may look more daunting than it is to the newbie, instilling some kind of terror that he won't be able to control his people or Planet. A player of Yang, regardless of skill level, would prefer Planned to Free Market because Planned has no deficiencies for him while Free Market does...although there are times he may want to run Free Market, in general it doesn't play to his strengths and weaknesses. This is one reason why he's always stuck for energy: it's often not advantageous for him to pursue it.

That said, going straight to Free Market seems a perfectly viable plan for many factions, and I'd definitely recommend it for Morgan unless he's really stuck for territory. It will often rake in huge amounts of cash (well, huge for the early game). Sure, you can't police the drones, but you only get up to size 4 early on anyway, and the Human Genome Project or Virtual World can help if you manage to get one of them.

- Kef

	01-06-2004 12:41									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski I, on the other hand, think it more worthwhile to increase energy output by up to 100% by running FM.

Growth is power.
PLANNED:
+2 Growth, +1 Industry, -2 Efficiency
FREE MARKET:
+2 Economy, -5 Police, -3 Planet

-police-
Every citizen past your first is a drone. While it's possible to set a doctor for a turn if you're spamming pods, that's only good up until your b-limit.
By then, you'll get Drones on the first turn, necessitating either a rushbuilt Commons or allocation to Psych.

I, OTOH, can simply plonk a Scout patrol down, and set a Doctor for 1 turn while I rush a pod (if it's at that b-limit).
Having Police is much better for early expansion - when a Colony Pod is worth far more than a Commons.

Then there's the problem - you want lots of scouts (or similar) popping pods and scouting out new bases.
When you're drone-drowned attempting to do what would put you ahead, you'll soon learn the downsides.
A mineral pod is just as good as a full rush, and a lot less painful.

-planet-
In a period where you're spamming formers, pods and crawlers, but before you have Trance...
You'll either lose your units or have to dance your units to avoid coming near worms.

-inefficiency-
Vel said it best.
-2 Inefficiency doesn't spork the b-limit, and you're not using much energy anyway.

-economy-
+1 Energy/square?
"Cool! Now my river forests are still 1-2-2, my monoliths are still 2-2-2, but at least I get +1 Energy on the other squares!"
It's not +1 Energy -every- square then.
Energy in the base?
"Cool! Now I can use this extra 1 energy to support the Rec Commons I needed to rush earlier!"

-industry-
Get a base in 0.9 of the time.
Get the next base in 0.81 of the time.
Get the next base in 0.729 of the time.
etc.

-growth-
Pop means power! Having 2 workers get +1 energy per tile isn't as good as having an extra worker on a 1-2-1 forest.
Growth is a great boon in the early game.

Verdict:
Go Go Gadget Planned, at least until restrictions are lifted.

	01-06-2004 12:47									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

EDIT:
Getting the HGP early (or VW for Zak) can mitigate these drone penalties.
If I get the HGP or the VW (or both!) then FM starts to look pretty damn good.
The problem is getting the infrastructure, of course.

	01-06-2004 13:09									#15
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Depends on faction & game time
In early game mins are much more important - thats why so many players tend to beeline for IA
But after you instate planetary trade pact at the same time having TFs & HFs energy becomes more appealing

In average - Energy!

	01-06-2004 13:33									#16
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quote: I don't think we disagree, Jamski...on the contrary, I'm an avid fan of early market, however....Market is only as effective as your early game infrastructure, and with the Morgan example, he's got no spiffy abilities such as a Police bonus to help mitigate Market's police penalty, which means at a minimum, rec commons everywhere before shifting to a Market stance (tho with Morgan, an early Market stance is not absolutely critical in any case, cos he can just run wealth and kick up the 1 energy per square).

I mean really early FM. Before even researching Social Pscyh. There is no need to build Rec Commons, as each base is building only colony pods and rushing the turn they grow to size two (having changed the worker to a doctor the turn previously) The Base Square, being immune to restrictions, is the important tile here, and you can generate an enormous amount of ecs early in the game by only planting bases. The sole aim is to get to Ind Auto first, because in my expericence this is often a major factor in deciding a game. Of course against the AI its not really an issue

quote: But to *get* to that early Market stance, a short trip to Planned to help get the early infrastructure in place across the board can really make the difference....Planned/Wealth is even better in that regard. An excellent transitional model for three reasons: 20% cheaper crawlers in preparation for a big productivity spike, faster, cheaper early infrastructure at a time when you're sorely punished by restrictions, and in a tight race for SP's (especially if you're rabid about getting all of them!), that extra nudge can really make the difference.

Perhaps - but if you're spending on the edge, the ec cost of just one turn spent in Planned, and not in FM, is huge - not to mention the cost of actually changing - those 40ecs could have rushed a colony pod 4 turns faster for example. In FM the ability to rush EVERYTHING to completion more than compensates for the -10% cost of Planned.

-Jam

	01-06-2004 18:45									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I don't think we disagree, Jamski...on the contrary, I'm an avid fan of early market, however....Market is only as effective as your early game infrastructure, and with the Morgan example, he's got no spiffy abilities such as a Police bonus to help mitigate Market's police penalty, which means at a minimum, rec commons everywhere before shifting to a Market stance (tho with Morgan, an early Market stance is not absolutely critical in any case, cos he can just run wealth and kick up the 1 energy per square). But to *get* to that early Market stance, a short trip to Planned to help get the early infrastructure in place across the board can really make the difference....Planned/Wealth is even better in that regard. An excellent transitional model for three reasons: 20% cheaper crawlers in preparation for a big productivity spike, faster, cheaper early infrastructure at a time when you're sorely punished by restrictions, and in a tight race for SP's (especially if you're rabid about getting all of them!), that extra nudge can really make the difference. -=Vel=-

I gotta agree with Jam on this one Vel. Early as possible switch to FM outdoes planned IMO saving the fact that it casues you to turtle. You plow through to IA much faster than planned. Rush buying colony pods and doctoring citizens where required. Key is making sure you have 2 nutrient squares to rely on to allow doctoring a citizen if required.

Once IA is attained, Market also allows that earlier fungal pop as eco damage is higher than if running planned.

FM for Morgie is killer as soon as possible. Check out
here

	01-06-2004 20:41									#18
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And regarding turtle status, send synth probe teams out as scouts (speeder, later foils) to pop pods. While running Wealth they have higher morale than everything else you can crank out, you get Speeder chassis even when not having researched Mobility, they don't cost support or even drones, synth armor mitigates the -50% non-combat bonus even in psi and if you find your opponents the AI doesn't complain about your units violating their territory and you can immediately infiltrate them...

(Boy, that sounds so good, I have to use them more regularly )

Of course they are somewhat expensive but you can rush them with your cash and with the first resupply or materials pod you have the invested cash or the turns back in, respectively.

	01-06-2004 22:25									#19
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I'm with Jamski too. First tech I always get is industrial economics so I can immediately switch to free market. Sometimes, you're tech rate can be halved early on, and your income doubled, and you're only at the year 2120.

	02-06-2004 00:51									#20
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I, of course, am also a huge fan of early FM for any faction that can take it. Don't poo-poo the extra energy per square and base square energy, because when you're under 3 population, that winds up _doubling_ your energy income or more. Doubling your energy doubles your tech rate, and doubles your rush-buying capital, and surely Vel can tell you about the huge merits of rush-buying for turn-advantage.

To be sure, there's a sacrifice involved once your bureaucracy limit kicks in, but the idea is that once you're rush buying commons when you plant your bases, you'll already be far ahead of your competition in terms of expansion and production capacity. And what's more, with your accelerated tech rate, IA is just around the corner, and with it comes a fast grab for SPs and a quick boost in mineral output shortly thereafter.

	02-06-2004 01:49									#21
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Minerals are more valuable but have an extremely diminished marginal utility. Energy has no point of marginal utility.

Energy is thus my long-term goal, but minerals are the gateway to energy: you can build your way out of an energy deficit, but it is much more difficult to buy your way out of a mineral deficit.

Mineral production is like air: it won't make you rich, but you'll die without it.

Free Market vs. Planned ... I used to be a Market zealot, but Planned amplifies the industry bonus of Wealth to such a degree I just can't pass it up. Add to that pop booming, fungus trolling, police, and the Longevity Vaccine's double effectiveness and Planned is a no-brainer for much of the early-mid game.

On the other hand I've recently switched from all-Morgan all the time to Zak, whose speedy research requires fast infrastructure-building to match. I can see why CyCon is so popular.

	02-06-2004 02:36									#22
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They have to lay thumbs down in present ACDG. Outproduced darn it!!

	02-06-2004 03:13									#23
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Ahhh, having read the latest, I see where the difference lies.

Yes, under an extreme ICS approach, the uber-early FM stance will net you significant early game energy, and hasten your arrival at crawlers, 'tis true.

However, in a standard game, one can usually reach crawlers in the 20's (30's at the outset)--this is directed research, not blind, obviously, and until you've got a decent number of bases up and running, then you don't really have enough bases to grab a meaningful amount of energy or anything else for that matter.

Planned's combination of growth and industry will get you bases fast to get into position for the very thing Master Jamski's talking about....

-=Vel=-

	02-06-2004 03:36									#24
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We should try a direct comparison on a "rigged" map with a "null faction".

It's the only way to be sure.

-Jam

	02-06-2004 07:32									#25
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Pods make the difference.
If it's a podless map, consider going FM.
If it's got pods, Planned's the go.
Rapid pod popping can skyrocket you up the leaderboard.

Once Wealth is in, going FM is more attractive. The Credits are there to rush your commons, and the crawlers can scout for base sites.

	02-06-2004 13:35									#26
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I use both approaches, depending on the context of the faction played and the type of game etc. Ogie turned me on to early FM and it is a powerhouse. I used to be a Planned only zealot, but they both have their place. I suppose these days I go FM before Planned more often than not though. Playing the Peacekeepers is great for early FM, as they don't have to worry about anything but the worms until they reach size 3.

Interestingly, in games where I'm using a lot of specialists I tend to run Planned a lot in the mid-game and later. It doesn't tend to have much of an impact on my energy production while the Industry is great, the B-drones (or any drones) aren't a problem and I can perpetually pop-boom.

	02-06-2004 18:59									#27
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EN makes a valid point regarding pods. This is what I alluded to wrt the downside of turtling.

While AndiD explains a work around (namely armored probes) they realistically are not going to be manufacutred as the inital thrust of a strictly FM initial expansion is to churn out a colony pod (by rush buyin if need be) by the time you hit size 2. This consumes a great deal of the energy. Likewise you want to make sure you bank roll 40 Ecs (transcend) for immediate switch to Wealth when IA is obtained.

Vel,

teh paradigm I layed out was an initial ICS no doubt. I purposely chose not to talk about the transition to mid-early game. The initial FM ICS I have found to be on average the most consistent means of powering through the early game to IA and thus creating massive turn advantage assuming of course there are no immediate threats.

	02-06-2004 19:12									#28
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Even WITH immediate threats FM ICS is the best early-game option!
If you are defending your territory, you dont receive any pacifism drones

as well as mid & late game..

&if you ask - what about D:AP?
Then I answer - when you get D:AP, its mid-game as D:AP changes military gameplay enormously!

&even then - just advance further to MMI & you have solved the pacifism problem

Only BIG threat to ICS is PBs
But if you are only one to ICS, youre the 1st to get PBs!

	02-06-2004 23:45									#29
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I would have to say that minerals are more important. However, later in the game in a protracted Vendetta, Energy is almost always more valuable. (Bribing units).

Personally, I detest FM. The negatives are too much compared to its benefits IMHO. But then again, I usually have ecodamage anyway and tend to size a large military.

It's not fun when you have to deal with 35+ Demon Boils when you're running Planned. I would hate to see how much I would get if I'm running FM.

	02-06-2004 23:52									#30
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quote: Originally posted by binTravkin Even WITH immediate threats FM ICS is the best early-game option! If you are defending your territory, you dont receive any pacifism drones as well as mid & late game.. &if you ask - what about D:AP? Then I answer - when you get D:AP, its mid-game as D:AP changes military gameplay enormously! &even then - just advance further to MMI & you have solved the pacifism problem Only BIG threat to ICS is PBs But if you are only one to ICS, youre the 1st to get PBs!

I've said this once, but I have to state it again. One time when I did ICS, I was hit by a Believer Planet Buster and lost every single SP I built, and most of my bases. I think I had maybe 2 or 3 bases left over. But were quickly taken over.

Ever since then, I do a East Coast-West Coast type of ICS'ing. That way, if one gets taken out, I still have another one to continue the fight.