01-06-2004 16:25									#1
	Idea for tech tree change in Industrial Era Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The problem:
Infantry and Artillery come very early.
While this is not a problem for a player, since liberal use of Artillery can take out high defense Infantry, it is devastating for an AI, which needs to wait 6-7 techs until it gets Tanks to challenge the players.

The proposal:
Make Replaceable parts require not only Electricity, but the Steel too, so that when you get Infantry Tanks won't be too far away (around 4-5 techs).


What do you think?

	01-06-2004 17:18									#2
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imo not sure tbh.

as i read your post i see your overriding assumption:
that the AI and the player are on similiar tech footing.

imo if you remove that assumption then i dont see a huge need to slow down the access to infantry. their might be a case for this to then lenghten the usefullness of say riflemen.

	01-06-2004 21:00									#3
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Well, if your tech is worse then of AI you would need RP as soon as possibile. And that's not difficult to do since you only need 3 techs in industrial era to get RP. Very quick way to easy tech gap.

On the other hand, you have an tech edge, getting RP early just makes you invulnerable to enemy cavalry.

	02-06-2004 11:21									#4
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Also, I fogot to point out that normaly Infantry is on the beggining of Industrial tech three (you need to get just 3 techs to have it), Tanks are at the end of Industrial era (usually last or one of the several last techs discovered).

I just think that a way too long period (it wrecks AI completly).

	02-06-2004 12:26									#5
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the ai gets replacable parts before me.

I'm busy going for Electronics and the Hoover Dam. I make my sacrifices.

	02-06-2004 16:24									#6
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Yes, human player can delay RP for a while, since Rifles are good enough against Cavalry in most cases.

Problem becomes when it gets time for offense.
Only human player can get good offense in such setup (due to atrillery). And those times are very long (at least 6 and probably more techs between infatry and tanks), making it worst time for AI.

My proposal obnly shotens such time for a little bit (so it helps AI, but doesn't really fixes any AI strategies).


Intersting thing to note that with this "fix" sci. metod/electronics rush becomes more risky since RP won't be just 1 tech away.

	02-06-2004 18:43									#7
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Well, I see the timings of Infantry and Tanks as part of the game-long swing between attack and defense.

Starting with just archers and spearmen, the balance is pretty much tilted in favour of spearmen (def bonus etc). Later on, as you get horsemen, swordsmen and med infantry, the balance is very much towards attacking. The musketmen balance things out slightly, but once riflemen arrive, the shift is back towards defense again. Then the calvary "trumps" the riflemen, and infantry pushes the scales towards defense once again. Later in the game, the balance is pretty much on offense (as it is in real life too), tanks, MA, aerial bombardment all lead towards forming a more aggressive manner of defense, requiring you to actively seek to destroy invading forces.

	02-06-2004 21:07									#8
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Actually, while Cavalry can beat Riflemen, it's not as good as Knight vs Pikemen, nor Horse vs Spearmen (thanks to higher defen bonuses of bigger cities).

It's only depatable that defeding period (infantry before tanks) is way too long.

From start of Industrial era (infatry for just 3 techs), to very end of industrial era (tanks).

	02-06-2004 22:38									#9
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Delaying artillery obviously helps the AI, but delaying Infantry hurts the AI, which relies on defensive units much more than human players.

Keep in mind that now (1.22) that Motorized Transportation doesn't require Electronics, Tanks can come faster, especially for human players who choose to make that beeline. Getting Tanks against an AI without Infantry is not going to be pretty.

On the other hand, the AI never beelines to Tanks, but takes its time to research optional techs like Nationalism, Communism, Fascism, and Espionage instead, so humans will usually manage to get Infantry before the AI gets Tanks, even if you add the Steel requirement.

Also, by adding the Steel requirement to RP you remove a choice from players that have just researched Electricity. Removing choices is usually a bad thing.

Last edited by alexman on 02-06-2004 at 22:43

	03-06-2004 01:30									#10
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Actually, I think that it adds a choice since going for Electronics can be risky in war sitations, since RP won't be just one tech away.

As for AI, as long as players have Cavalry, having just Rifles makes them fine (and fine against others AIs too).

	03-06-2004 01:38									#11
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Actually, I think that it adds a choice since going for Electronics can be risky in war sitations, since RP won't be just one tech away.

There are plenty of players that would risk going for Hoover for the extra production, even in war situations, so that choice is already there.

quote: As for AI, as long as players have Cavalry, having just Rifles makes them fine (and fine against others AIs too).

Yes, but having Infantry would make them more fine!
Seriously, the AI might be fine with Rifles against Cavalry, but what about against Tanks?

	03-06-2004 03:22									#12
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I run some test games and it was very rare that when player (or top AI) get Tanks, that other AIs won't have Infantries.

Probably has something to that with AI favoring Industrial branch of tech tree right after the Nationalism branch (so getting Steel is not problem).

	03-06-2004 09:37									#13
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Shouldn't you also discourage the techs after Nationalism? Maybe make them also require other techs?

Communism could require The Corporation, and Fascism... I dunno what Fascism would require.

	03-06-2004 11:25									#14
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That could always be possibility.
But it's a little bit difficult to draw an arrow between Communism and Corporation (compared to Steel -> RParts).

	03-06-2004 16:43									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Shouldn't you also discourage the techs after Nationalism? Maybe make them also require other techs? Communism could require The Corporation, and Fascism... I dunno what Fascism would require.

Oooh! Now THERE'S something to help the AI away from all those idiotic techs that get it killed!

A bit too drastic for AU perhaps, but worth trying out.

	04-06-2004 00:01									#16
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hi ,

nice idea player , but the tree could use a couple more techs all together , .... maybe when civ for comes out , ....

btw , have you tried this in a mod or scen allready , ....

have a nice day

	04-06-2004 10:23									#17
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Yes I did few tests with AIs (using debugger).

As far as I've seen they got RP before Electronics and Atomic Theory, and all exempt one got RP before the best one got Tanks.

	04-06-2004 11:58									#18
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Oooh! Now THERE'S something to help the AI away from all those idiotic techs that get it killed! A bit too drastic for AU perhaps, but worth trying out.

I need someone to research those stupid techs. So I don't have to