01-06-2004 17:07									#1
	Air missions Enter the AD-FREE zone

Whats the general view on the way air misions are handled? I think we should go to a CTP style system in Civ4, where you get to select your own route. Heres why:

At the moment I often find if I want to attack 2 different targets, I spend a turn attacking the first, then I re-base my aircraft on the second turn, then I bomb the second target the third turn.

With a CTP system I could (assuming all is within range) take off from base 1, attack my first target, and land at base 2 all in one turn. In the second turn I can then attack my second target, saving valuable time.

	01-06-2004 17:11									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

The mission based system in Civ3 is fine. There's quite a list of CtP features I'd love to see in Civ4, but this one is not on it.

	01-06-2004 17:18									#3
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I like the idea.
Something else: specify which target you want to bomb. (pherhaps only to stealth bombers)

And for stealth fighters, you should be able to put them on several awareness grades, the higher the awareness grade (ie. in war) the higher the change you intercept a bomber. Of course such a grade would be more expensive. It must be able to set all fighters on a high grade from a central point, and per fighter.

Of course more fighers should mean a higher change to hit the bomber.
It's really strange that 100 bombers can bomb down a city with 50 fighers in it, while only 5% of the bombers is hit.

Of course it should be possible as well to hit a bomber AFTER he hitted his target.

Another option: guard a bomber with several fighters.
IE. if a bomber, guarded with 5 fighthers is bombing a city in which are 3 fighters, the bombing run will succeed (but ie. 2 defending fighters are gone)

A bomber should be able to bomb multiple targets as well to higher the impact. (and the value to defend it)

oh well, this is a big load of ideas

	01-06-2004 17:28									#4
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy I like the idea. Something else: specify which target you want to bomb. (pherhaps only to stealth bombers)

It's already in Civ3, called "precision strike".

quote: And for stealth fighters, you should be able to put them on several awareness grades, the higher the awareness grade (ie. in war) the higher the change you intercept a bomber. Of course such a grade would be more expensive. It must be able to set all fighters on a high grade from a central point, and per fighter.

The key for a good, balanced game is to keep it as simple as possible.

quote: Of course more fighers should mean a higher change to hit the bomber. It's really strange that 100 bombers can bomb down a city with 50 fighers in it, while only 5% of the bombers is hit. Of course it should be possible as well to hit a bomber AFTER he hitted his target.

While I'm aware, that reality and games are two different things, this ratio is quite real; no point to change it. The biggest bomber group will wear out if sent multiple times, and that's the point of intercepting and flaks.

quote: Another option: guard a bomber with several fighters. IE. if a bomber, guarded with 5 fighthers is bombing a city in which are 3 fighters, the bombing run will succeed (but ie. 2 defending fighters are gone)

This would be a good addition.

	01-06-2004 18:27									#5
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quote: It's already in Civ3, called "precision strike".

You can't pick a target with precision strike. At least, I never could. I can't say: "Strike the temple" or "Strike the mech", precision strike just targets a city building.

quote: The key for a good, balanced game is to keep it as simple as possible.

This is quiet a simple system imho

quote: The biggest bomber group will wear out if sent multiple times, and that's the point of intercepting and flaks.

Yeah, but you can't defend your cities against these groups. You can only wear out the group on the long term. But then most of your city improvements are long gone.

Imagine that the Russians would be able to bomb the Washingthon for 4 years with 100 bombers, when only 20 of them are shot down after 4 years.... and half of Washingthon is being bombed.

	01-06-2004 18:41									#6
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Imagine that the Russians would be able to bomb the Washingthon for 4 years with 100 bombers, when only 20 of them are shot down after 4 years.... and half of Washingthon is being bombed.

You don't want to open the "reality" can of worms, do you?

TBS games run as a sequence of turns (duh! ). Years are only assigned to them to mirror the level of technology. But comparisons, that base of differences of years, will always be wrong. Or why do you need decades to circumnavigate the globe. Or why does an ancient warrior need 1000 years to get to the other end of his continent? Or why does it take 30 years to build a couple of miles railroad while it takes no time to ride it?

	01-06-2004 19:11									#7
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Yeah, when I wrote down the 'reality' thing, I knew you would come up with this. And you're right.

But in this case I think it makes sence. It's not very cool to have the most advanced air system, hundreds of stealth-fighters, and still see the enemy simply taking out all your units and city-improvements.

I'll leave the reality-can of worms out of it, and just say: The game sucks when 1000 bombers ruin your cities

	01-06-2004 19:27									#8
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy I'll leave the reality-can of worms out of it, and just say: The game sucks when 1000 bombers ruin your cities

Yea, that's something I can agree with.

	01-06-2004 19:32									#9
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I disagree that precision bombing is available fully - as said above you can select to bomb a building but not which one. Modern warplanes can select specific targets with ease, and can strike military units that are holed up in cities (as in Iraq) while leaving key buildings intact (for instance in Iraq bridges and water were deliberately left untouched).

Also warplanes dont find the world freezes for several seconds when they destroy a harbour

	02-06-2004 10:40									#10
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But I like the civ3 airforce model better than any other model I have seen though!
I just hope civ4 improves on it.

But in fact I hope civ4 improves on everything

	02-06-2004 21:42									#11
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Dont we all??

Civ3's current system would be fine in Civ 4 so long as I can designate an alternative base to land at when neccessary.

	03-06-2004 06:10									#12
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Precision strike should be precision strike, bomb this hp off of this unit, bomb this building, bomb this citizen,etc.

	03-06-2004 09:44									#13
	Re: Air missions Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by spy14 Whats the general view on the way air misions are handled? I think we should go to a CTP

I stopped reading here.

Seriously, though, the CTP system sucks. The AI is completely incapable of using it effectively, it's counterintuitive (why exactly can't I land my Stealth Bomber in this city? Because I have twelve land units in it already? ), and the C3 system is incredibly easy to use.

	03-06-2004 10:53									#14
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: bomb this citizen

That wouldn't be civilization but barbarism!

	03-06-2004 16:05									#15
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Imagine the micromanagement if you could bomb individual citizens!

---> Chance to hit a prominent scientist/military tactician/engineer that harms the city for several turns...?

	03-06-2004 16:12									#16
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Imagine the micromanagement if you could bomb individual citizens! ---> Chance to hit a prominent scientist/military tactician/engineer that harms the city for several turns...?

It's optional micromanagement. And optional micromanagement is not a problem since you don't have to use it.

	03-06-2004 16:18									#17
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That sounds horribly like MoO3 to me....

	03-06-2004 19:40									#18
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Yeah, when I wrote down the 'reality' thing, I knew you would come up with this. And you're right. But in this case I think it makes sence. It's not very cool to have the most advanced air system, hundreds of stealth-fighters, and still see the enemy simply taking out all your units and city-improvements. I'll leave the reality-can of worms out of it, and just say: The game sucks when 1000 bombers ruin your cities

In order to intercept a bomber you have to put your fighter units on a air superiority mission. Success of interception can be modded (default is 50% against non-stealth air units and 5% against stealth units) in the editor. In Civ IV, though I would like to see the interception rate modified by either unit or tech's as it makes no sense for a F-15 to have a 50% failure rate against non-stealth units.

Of course you could put a few flak units to defend cities as well.

	03-06-2004 21:18									#19
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

that's what I mean.
It must be possible to defend your city against aircrafts

	04-06-2004 19:16									#20
	Re: Re: Air missions Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich I stopped reading here. Seriously, though, the CTP system sucks. The AI is completely incapable of using it effectively, it's counterintuitive (why exactly can't I land my Stealth Bomber in this city? Because I have twelve land units in it already? ), and the C3 system is incredibly easy to use.

Unless the land units are parked on the runway I cant see to much problem. Air and ground crew can be accomodated with other units already in the area (seriously - sub crews manage )

It would be nice also to be able to launch cruise missiles from bombers aka CTP2

	05-06-2004 05:18									#21
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quote: Originally posted by CyberShy that's what I mean. It must be possible to defend your city against aircrafts

I don't really understand the comment, a size 20 bomber force opposed by 5 jet fighters and 2 flak units would suffer a 65% loss rate over 4 turns. It is already quite possible to defend against aircraft in Civ III.

	05-06-2004 19:02									#22
	Re: Air missions Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by spy14 Whats the general view on the way air misions are handled? I think we should go to a CTP style system in Civ4, where you get to select your own route. Heres why: At the moment I often find if I want to attack 2 different targets, I spend a turn attacking the first, then I re-base my aircraft on the second turn, then I bomb the second target the third turn. With a CTP system I could (assuming all is within range) take off from base 1, attack my first target, and land at base 2 all in one turn. In the second turn I can then attack my second target, saving valuable time.

I actually like the idea, and remeber some great missions using the CTP style.

Yet, so too I have been having fun with the current system.

There is some fun to be had sending in the fighter bombers in the WWII conquest...

	07-06-2004 00:42									#23
	Re: Re: Air missions Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Paddy the Scot I actually like the idea, and remeber some great missions using the CTP style. Yet, so too I have been having fun with the current system. There is some fun to be had sending in the fighter bombers in the WWII conquest...

There are a few things that I liked about Civ 2 and CTP style air systems; such as allowing bombers to carry cruise missles and having air units perform ASW, but on the whole I like the CIV III system more. The figher-bombers in the conquest scenario are great as well.