18-06-2004 05:52									#31
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quote: Originally posted by orrery Aside from the false assumption about american education which is among the best in the world, especially on the university level the US has become globally dominate even in unseen ways. In no nation is the President not discussed or american actions not debated. As for the X-Prize Cup, it is an event funded by the X-Prize in which private entrepeneurs will be competing for prizes as it relates to privately launched space vehicles. SpaceShipOne is a non-government funded space vehicle. www.scaled.com do a yahoo search on x-prize cup for more information. It is an event that will allow x-prize contestants to compete against each other in several events for prize money.

Education in this country is failing. Most industrialized nations educate their children better than the average US citizen. Primary and Secondary education is substandard when compared to these nations. Even at the University level there is a shift in priorities from education to research. If the current trends continue, the only people attending our Universities will be the rich and foreign nationals.

quote: The majority of US debt is not to foreign nations, but to private bankers within the US. US debt has been concentrated into a few rich hands since Thomas Jefferson made it his perogative to insure that though going into debt is undesirable it is best to go into debt with people you trust. Otherwise, the debtholders of the US are a closely guarded secret. I contest the notion that the US owes the UN anything. The UN has never lent out money to the US, it has no money to lend.

US debt is owned by those who buy treasury notes. There are no restricions on who may buy them. Do you know what happens when an entire nation goes "belly-up"? Nothing good, I assure you.

quote: The people make up the big businesses of america. Are you contesting the authority of the government to hold suspects in the war on terrorism who were caught red-handed in afghanistan? I hope not. I see nothing profitable for you to try and undermine US authority.

Big buisness is run by approx 20, 000 individuals who on 99% of the wealth of this country. Most of this wealth is actually kept overseas to avoid paying the Government what they actually owe in taxes.

As for the Taliban and Al-Quieda who were captured in Afghanistan. I say give 'em what the Geneva Convention calls for-- A Summary Execution.

	20-06-2004 14:54									#32
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quote: Americans are going to be the majority of people buying the game. As an American, I would like to see Civ IV succeed and I think it can best do that by expanding what it has to offer to its customers.

I agree with this in principle. This is a game that needs to sell, and as the US is presumably the largest target audience, and is the country of the game developers, it is going to have americo-centric overtones. Most notably in the late game.

quote: Originally posted by orrery Also, with the United States as dominant as it is in today's world, I feel that such additions could help the world understand those things which make the United States the greatest Union on earth.

The American "look at us aren't we great" attitude is a turn off to most people. The statement "things which make the United States the greatest Union on Earth" alone makes me roll my eyes - not because I don't believe the US is the most powerful, richest, most [insert adjective] in the world, but because it is delivered in an peremptory tone. Unfortunately this is exactly the opposite impact of what you are wanting for the foreign markets buying the game.

The game is not a PR exercise for the US. Any game that is overly American will not sell well outside of the US, and will only serve to cement the view of arrogant America.

As the US is the target audience, aren't you preaching to the converted? Wouldn't it make sense to use the game to advertise to Americans that there is a world outside that is actually acheiving great things too.

	21-06-2004 00:18									#33
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that there is a world outside that is actually acheiving great things too

Amen brother, even I live in the good ole USA, sometimes the politics and ploices make me want to spew


The best example of our attitude is at the olympic games.
We wont dip our flag (to show respest to the host nation).

Can you feel the love generated bt this act...

	11-07-2004 04:48									#34
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Hey people, can you move the political discussion to the off topic forum, please? People who complain about the US being too proud are as guilty as the ones they are accusing.

Do you want to got non-US-theme wonders? Why you donīt propose them yourselves? For example, If I am right the Japaneese are developing a train working with magnetic fields. This could be a wonder that reduces polution generated by city population.

	11-07-2004 05:27									#35
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Would any body like to something simular to unmanned recon drones as a tech to develope, then get the unit?

	11-07-2004 09:10									#36
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The World Wide Web would be an excellent Great Wonder. In the real world it defines what a great wonder is in the game: Something that can be used by everyone once created.

	11-07-2004 12:00									#37
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Would that be the same as Internet?

if so then its covered

	11-07-2004 13:49									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Platypus Rex Would that be the same as Internet? if so then its covered

	11-07-2004 19:46									#39
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STOP THE

Not all countries with federal systems are large, look at switzerland.

	11-07-2004 20:11									#40
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I think they should make techs that are specific to certain culture groups, like in the Middle Ages Conquests scenario. This would help differentiate the civs even further, and allow for some interesting tech choices as you progress through the tech tree (as I posted somewhere else, one of my gripes about Civ3 is that tech choices mean little).

I'm not very creative, but here are some ideas:

1. European: Knights, castles, and such; ships, trade routes, colonization, and such.
2. Early american: blood sacrifices, guerilla warfare, and such.
3. North African: farming, Wonder-building, and such.

(For better examples, check out the aforementioned scenario.)

Of course, these are based on stereotypes, but then again so is much in Civ. The idea is not so much to force the player down a particular cultural group path, but give more variability between civs than a simple period-based UU (traits add variability, but IMO not enough).

	11-07-2004 20:16									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Of course, these are based on stereotypes, but then again so is much in Civ. The idea is not so much to force the player down a particular cultural group path, but give more variability between civs than a simple period-based UU (traits add variability, but IMO not enough).

... as long as they don't go too far with it. Ever played Empire Earth or AoE, etc., and had NO CLUE which civ to pick? I know I have. "Let's see, do I want +10% food gathering, +5% ancient infantry attack and +20% naval movement speed OR +15% building area effect, +10% medieval mounted defense and +15% tech reasearch speed OR...". You get the idea.

	11-07-2004 20:19									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber 1)I am pretty sure that most of these are Parlimentarian Republics as opposed to a Federal Republic (like in the US) and both are different styles of represenative democracy which are included in the Democracy government. We shouldn't reinvent the wheel just to make a cosmetic change to a game.

Canada and Russia are both. I dunno about Germany, but I know that Mexico is definately Federal Republic as well.

	12-07-2004 08:22									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber 1)I am pretty sure that most of these are Parlimentarian Republics as opposed to a Federal Republic (like in the US) and both are different styles of represenative democracy which are included in the Democracy government. We shouldn't reinvent the wheel just to make a cosmetic change to a game. Canada and Russia are both. I dunno about Germany, but I know that Mexico is definately Federal Republic as well.

Wether Canada, Germany, or Mexico are, or are not, a federal republic is a side item. The real issue I was conveying is that the addition of Federalism as a government would be redundent and unnecessary.

	12-07-2004 08:23									#44
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 ... as long as they don't go too far with it. Ever played Empire Earth or AoE, etc., and had NO CLUE which civ to pick? I know I have. "Let's see, do I want +10% food gathering, +5% ancient infantry attack and +20% naval movement speed OR +15% building area effect, +10% medieval mounted defense and +15% tech reasearch speed OR...". You get the idea.

I cuncur

	12-07-2004 09:53									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber Wether Canada, Germany, or Mexico are, or are not, a federal republic is a side item. The real issue I was conveying is that the addition of Federalism as a government would be redundent and unnecessary.

Just some helpful nitpicking

	12-07-2004 10:07									#46
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quote: Originally posted by punkbass2000 ... as long as they don't go too far with it.

I'm thinking some even less drastic that the Middle Ages scenario (which had a different branch for each culture group). Just a tech here and there that only some civs would have access to, complete with unique abilities and such.

	12-07-2004 11:28									#47
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Most of the differences you mentioned in your earlier post are direct consecuences of geographical position in the world...

Thus it could be interesting not that each civ had access to some of this 'special techs', but that the player had to choose between several branches in response to both what he sees in the terrain, and what he wants for his civ.


For example, if the land around your start location is very fertile and has hughe potential when worked fully, then perhaps you might want to have few but large cities, and would thus pick a branch in the tree that provides for expensive buildings that double production in one city rather than cheap buildings that add +5 production (which a civ with little natural resources could chose) or expensive buildings that boost production by 5% nationwide.

And i've just came up with that stuff... so far, we have only seen it in wonders, but perhaps there could be buildings that worked similarly (ie, to have a 'hoover dam' type of improvement that would cost much more maintenance than a single plant, but would be more cost-effective for the larger nations.

All in all, everything would go down to balance. It should be almost equally convenient in having large, far flung empires than small, centralised ones. But you should choose which way you want to style your nation and then go down a path, completely disregarding another one, with whichever advantages and disadvantages that brings.

If anybody has played Age of Mithology, it would be like choosing between the secondary gods every time you advance an age.

	12-07-2004 11:41									#48
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quote: Originally posted by lajzar Ask for Grid Computing, is that anything like Network Computing?

More like computer clusters.

However, Grid Computing must follow the Internet.

	12-07-2004 11:44									#49
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quote: Originally posted by lajzar Hoover Dam - China is currently doing a project equally as impressive. And if flooding is implemented, this wonder should increase the chance of that happening.

That's the Three Gorges Dam.

	12-07-2004 11:47									#50
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quote: Originally posted by orrery lazjar, I'm not amused with your continuing attempts to knock US achievements.

Keep that to yourself, thank you.

quote: Originally posted by orrery Hollywood has had far more greater impact on the world than Bollywood.

That is what you think. I don't see a lot of worldwide impact Hollywood has.

quote: Originally posted by orrery The world could always do with a little more of what makes the US the shining beacon of freedom in the world.

My side

	12-07-2004 11:49									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Platypus Rex Would that be the same as Internet? if so then its covered

Yes and no. The WWW builds on top of the Internet, but it goes further by creating simple mechanisms for the common man to publish.

	12-07-2004 15:02									#52
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quote: Originally posted by N35t0r For example, if the land around your start location is very fertile and has hughe potential when worked fully, then perhaps you might want to have few but large cities, and would thus pick a branch in the tree that provides for expensive buildings that double production in one city rather than cheap buildings that add +5 production (which a civ with little natural resources could chose) or expensive buildings that boost production by 5% nationwide.

The non-tradable resource group could be expanded and used to define geographic influence on your development. i.e Have certain resources permit certain types of building being built. An expansion of the Statue of Zeus concept where you need Ivory to build it.

	12-07-2004 21:26									#53
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Damn! Poly ate my post. And I'd copied it... but then I forgot and copied something else to paste it. Oh well.

Short version: let's try and actually discuss tech ideas here, as opposed to chest-thumping nationalism and the various responses to it.

I'd like to see the ancient age lengthened (since it's my favorite). Therefore, to stuff like carpentry (I'd call it craftsmanship and have it apply to woodworking and stoneworking).

Other ideas:

- boatbuilding. Inserted somewhere between alphabet and mapmaking. Allows curragh.

- drama. Dead-end offshoot of literature. Allows theatres (in size 6+ cities ), which help happiness and culture.

- tactics. Requires warrior code, provides hefty combat bonus vs. barbs, minor combat bonus vs. civs lacking tactics.

- maneuver. *if stacked combat is in* - dead end offshoot of tactics. Allows larger stacks.

- fortification. Dead-end, requires masonry, math and tactics. Allows city walls, fortress building, and provides a bonus to unit fortification.

Stuff like that, just to fill it out a bit.

-Arrian

	13-07-2004 11:57									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Damn! Poly ate my post. And I'd copied it... but then I forgot and copied something else to paste it. Oh well. Short version: let's try and actually discuss tech ideas here, as opposed to chest-thumping nationalism and the various responses to it.

I'd like that but some statements need to be countered, even if it requires a OT post to do so.

quote: I'd like to see the ancient age lengthened (since it's my favorite). Therefore, to stuff like carpentry (I'd call it craftsmanship and have it apply to woodworking and stoneworking).

Craftmanship deserves a

quote: Other ideas: - boatbuilding. Inserted somewhere between alphabet and mapmaking. Allows curragh. - drama. Dead-end offshoot of literature. Allows theatres (in size 6+ cities ), which help happiness and culture. - tactics. Requires warrior code, provides hefty combat bonus vs. barbs, minor combat bonus vs. civs lacking tactics. - maneuver. *if stacked combat is in* - dead end offshoot of tactics. Allows larger stacks.

Again some great ideas, these would add some more depth and really flesh out the ancient age. I would like to see some more late industrial and early modern city improvements though, especially in the area of culture. Although they would be largely cosmetic (most players do not play much into the modern era) it would add some flavor to the age and give a player something to build besides wealth or a unit.

quote: - fortification. Dead-end, requires masonry, math and tactics. Allows city walls, fortress building, and provides a bonus to unit fortification. -Arrian

I am not saying this is a bad idea per se, but I am not picturing where this would fit. Would this replace construction or would this be an offshoot of construction? Also what need would their be to research construction if all of the benefits are moved to fortification?

	13-07-2004 12:02									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I'd like to see the ancient age lengthened (since it's my favorite). Therefore, to stuff like carpentry (I'd call it craftsmanship and have it apply to woodworking and stoneworking).

Carpentry requires metal tools, though, so it needs metalworking or something like that.

quote: Originally posted by Arrian - drama. Dead-end offshoot of literature. Allows theatres (in size 6+ cities ), which help happiness and culture.

What about music and dance? Even the most primitive tribes have them.

	13-07-2004 15:46									#56
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@Arrian
About tactics: Isn't that a tech that has to be reinvented always after new weapons were developed? Maybe there should be more than just one "tactics" tech.

	13-07-2004 15:54									#57
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Would we really want that much detail?

To cover every possible tech to lead to a tactic?

What about play ability?

If we want more detail, me thinks this effects turn lengths?


Wondering mindlessly

	13-07-2004 17:53									#58
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Well, I was thinking of an "advanced tactics" tech in the late medieval/early industrial, but tactics was just one idea. I have no problem with it being left out.

quote: Carpentry requires metal tools, though, so it needs metalworking or something like that.

Point taken. So make "craftsmanship" come off of bronze working.

quote: What about music and dance? Even the most primitive tribes have them.

Fine by me, I don't really care what it's called. I just think there should be a happiness/culture structure that doesn't involve religion. But that's me.

quote: I am not saying this is a bad idea per se, but I am not picturing where this would fit. Would this replace construction or would this be an offshoot of construction? Also what need would their be to research construction if all of the benefits are moved to fortification?

Doh! I forgot to say "offshoot of construction." Construction in CivIII also enables Colosseums and Aqueducts. Removing forts doesn't really reduce its value much. One possible variation would be to leave city walls with masonry (because otherwise the only thing masonry allows is the Pyramids), and just have fortification provide a bonus to their effectiveness (say they start out as a 25% bonus, but if you have fortification, it rises to 50%).

New thought of the day: what about techs that increase the value/usefulness of luxuries?

What if people like grapes already, but then you "research" fermenting? Now you've got wine, which is even better. People might like glittery stones, but if you research "gemwork" or something with a better name than I can think of, perhaps they will like 'em even more?

Stuff like that. The incredible power of the marketplace in civIII can be toned down a bit, and some optional techs can fill the void.

Like? No like? I don't even know if I do yet...

-Arrian

	14-07-2004 00:01									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian working. New thought of the day: what about techs that increase the value/usefulness of luxuries? What if people like grapes already, but then you "research" fermenting? Now you've got wine, which is even better. People might like glittery stones, but if you research "gemwork" or something with a better name than I can think of, perhaps they will like 'em even more? Stuff like that. The incredible power of the marketplace in civIII can be toned down a bit, and some optional techs can fill the void. Like? No like? I don't even know if I do yet... -Arrian

Taking things to a new level...that smacks of thought

YES I like

	15-07-2004 18:45									#60
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About the Federal government:

the common thing between the countries with federal government is that they have great diversity among their population.
Switzerland has 3(at least) official languages that are spoken in different parts
India has MANY official religions
USA....Russia....Canada
they are all countries with diverse population.
Federal government is just a modification on Democracy that makes it more efficient for diverse population.