02-06-2004 16:11									#1
	Managing distant corrupt towns Full PM-box? Change here!

This is about what to do with distant, newly created towns. The scenario is like this. You've just founded a new city, far away from your capital/FP (say 30 tiles away). What's your build order?

Some basic conditions
Emp or higher (so only 1 content citizen)
Build is part of your REX, so no roads, no MP
Terrain is a couple of 2 food tiles (say 2), rest are 1-food tiles. say 1 jungle and 1 forest, rest mixed.
Early game, so still in despotism.

What I normally do is to move a military unit there, and try to build a worker ASAP. 10 turns to build, 10 turns for pop growth. I know it's not the most efficient way of building workers, but the city is really just to expand territory, and there's no real value is having it grow bigger. I suppose in the future, with better government and serious improvement, it could be a semi-decent way of building some military units, but right now, there's no other use.

What I'd like to know is what you guys do with these faraway cities. I suppose the scenario could be varied quite abit. Coastal start. High food tiles. The 1-city on a 4-5 tile island. City near AI. and the list goes on, but I thought we'd start with the basic distant corrupt city and work it from them.

	02-06-2004 17:07									#2
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Depends what the city is designed for.

If nothing special, I wouldn't found it in the first place. That's because as a probable 1-shield/1-gold city it wouldn't be cost-efficient for most of the game, or even cost money to keep up the happiness improvements. Also, the military needed to defend it could better be used otherwise.

If it's a resource colony, I would put my effort into connecting it. Preferably by a harbor in the city itself, or by a yet-to-build harbor city nearby. Second would be some stuff to defend it, like walls and barracks. A worker to connect the resource, would have some priority too.

If it's a military outpost, it would obviously begin with walls and barracks, and later produce (or even cash-rush) units there, for expeditions.

In both cases, if it's near enemy territory, a cheap cultural building (library if scientific, temple otherwise) would be high on the list.

If there's hope to get it at least half productive later, I would then build a courthouse (may be even earlier) on a 1-shield basis. If there's no hope to get it productive, I'd irrigate everything around and let it be a pure specialists city.

If it's a randomly received city from a hut and can't serve another purpose, I'd consider to disband it by building a settler.

	02-06-2004 17:22									#3
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thats a pretty difficult question to answer.

as you say there is so many variables (to add a few more , luxuries, reasources, taxation status)

firstly when im rexing i try have roads built almost right up to the "front line" of ur rex. ofc this is dependant on having enuf workers to do it. (i try make sure i do)
the less turns lost getting to the city location is obviously critical when u need to expand big and fast.

also i wont use MP unless its bordering another AI, in that case its a front line city and not really a normal one then.

from the numbers (distance, the fact that ur REXing) i would assume that the City will only produce 1 shield per turn becuase it be corrupt as hell. (based on the fact that i tightly space my cities and pack in as many as i can squeeze in, usually CxxxC or CxxxxC, but if stuck for land it be CxxC)

so as id see it my build order would be
Granery > habour (if pos) > courthouse > Aquaduct (if necessary) > marketplace > temple

the order of those might change depending on the situation, eg if their is a nice juicy reasource or lux i might go for temple earlier
i might build some workers first if im short them.

but tbh its difficult to say what i would do becuase everything i do in the game is a reaction to the world surrounding me, rather than me having a definate "plan" that i follow each time.

	02-06-2004 17:58									#4
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1-shield, 1-gold cities are pretty useless. Their main (only) advantage is to prevent another civ to settle that piece of land and use it as a beachhead. Of course, in time there might be (or there is already) a useful resource in their radius.
My two cents:
IFirst of all, connect the city to the roads' grid. If it's a coastal city, build a harbor for military/commerce purposes. If you fear an invasion, put a barrack. Then pump out workers and add them to more productive cities. Don't build anything else, it's not worth. Put in on 'wealth' and forget about it.

	02-06-2004 18:49									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph If nothing special, I wouldn't found it in the first place. That's because as a probable 1-shield/1-gold city it wouldn't be cost-efficient for most of the game, or even cost money to keep up the happiness improvements. Also, the military needed to defend it could better be used otherwise.

But wouldn't you just want to land-grab simply to deny the AI from settling there? Also, even if the terrain is quite lousy (say... tundra, jungles and mountains), there's always the possibility of interesting resources popping up later. (not to mention the irritation from the AI sending troops across your territory just to plonk down that 1-2 towns in those areas).

oh, and depending on the govt, it might offer decent unit support, which shld help pay for it's happiness improvements.

	02-06-2004 18:49									#6
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* sorry, dbl-post *

	02-06-2004 19:47									#7
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Irritation?

Hell, I THANK the AI for settling those worthless towns for me. Saves me the cost of the settler that could be better used towards something of more importance. Besides, those cities will be mine soon enough anyway. If they're sending settler stacks THROUGH my territory, I thank them for the workers.

	02-06-2004 19:51									#8
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aye a size 6 town in republic is worth a min 7gpt no matter what corruption is like assuming uve a reasonably large military.
that being 6gpt for the support (3 units) and 1 gpt after corruption.

assuming that the city stands for 200 turns thats
total of 1400 per city per game. not including specialists,
not to be scoffed at imo.


ofc when ur in depotism its not so important, but u have to plan ahead in this game!!

	02-06-2004 20:04									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Goethe80 But wouldn't you just want to land-grab simply to deny the AI from settling there?

No. I would let the AI waste food and shields on it, focus on a smaller but efficienter empire and eventually take the cities later. As long as the REX phase goes, no settler is worth to be wasted merely to deny land to the AI. Use them instead to found cities, that yield you the most food/shield/commerce-wise.

quote: Also, even if the terrain is quite lousy (say... tundra, jungles and mountains), there's always the possibility of interesting resources popping up later.

If you want to have all resources guaranteed, you'd have to settle the whole world. Try instead to settle on a good mix of terrain types near your core. To plopp a city and waste an early settler to grab a patch of desert in the hope for oil or saltpeter and maintain and defend that city for hundreds of turns just to see, that the desired oil popped up one tile outside your borders is very annoying.

quote: (not to mention the irritation from the AI sending troops across your territory just to plonk down that 1-2 towns in those areas).

If the AI insists to waste resources (and settlers are VERY valuable resources early on!), let it. These cities are bound to be weak and unable to produce many defenders. Easy meat later on.

quote: oh, and depending on the govt, it might offer decent unit support, which shld help pay for it's happiness improvements.

It does the same if you plopp it in an area where it's actually productive and able to pay for itself, reproduce (build settlers itself) and be covered by your main military forces instead of binding an extra department.

	02-06-2004 21:06									#10
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IMO, the only times settling far-away totally corrupt cities makes sense are:

-to grab a luxury or strategic resource (I did this recently in the ancient age to grab ivory, which of course is a bit of both It was no small thing, either, as it required a 6 or 7 turn trip on a galley to get there from my nearest coastal city)
-as preparation for an invasion
-if you can lock up a decent-sized island with a couple of cities, denying said island to the AI and thus claiming any resources which may pop up there later, and you can do so without straining at all (which means your core is already in good shape).

Otherwise, you're probably wasting resources that could be better used elsewhere.

-Arrian

	02-06-2004 21:15									#11
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This is very good; two basic strategies and both are resonably acceptable. I would tend to lean towards Sir Ralph strategy, but I think either way will work fine.

Sometimes it's nice to have a few AI cities close to your borders. In times of War, you can conquer these cities without extending yourself. After the conquest, the AI civ. is much more responsive to peace negotiations. This is especially good for a limited war strategy (land grab or tech grab).

	02-06-2004 22:24									#12
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One thing I will do with outpost cities (typically designed to grab a luxury) is rush a barracks and then rush several spearmen BEFORE I build a harbor. Then when I rush the harbor, I can upgrade the spears to pikes or whatever. That can help stave off an early AI attack. As time goes on, I will be able to reinforce the city properly.

The city I grabbed ivory with started as a spear/settler team, since that is all that could fit in my 1 galley.

IIRC, that city first built a temple, since I was religious and given its proximity to the borders of a fairly strong civ. The second thing was a barracks (rushed), and then I rushed a couple of spearmen and an archer... and then I got attacked. During the attach I upgraded an archer to a longbowman, rushed another longbow, rushed a horsemen, rushed walls, and then upgraded three spears to muskets.

I didn't need a worker, since I built the city on the ivory resource.

It was an expensive city, obviously. Temple = 29 shields * 4 gold = 116. Harbor at 79 shields * 4 gold = 316 gold. Barracks = 39 shields * 4 gold = 156 gold. 3 spearmen and 1 archer at 19shields * 4 = 304 gold. 1 longbowman at 39 shields * 4 = 156 gold. 1 horseman at 29 shields * 4 = 116 gold. 1 archer to longbow upgrade, pre-Leos = 20 shields @ 3g per = 60 gold. Walls @ 19 * 4 = 76 gold.

1300 gold right there. I also ended up rushing a courthouse and aqueduct up there, IIRC.

Good thing I was commercial.

It was worth it, though. An extra luxury to keep my people happy + the SoZ is worth 1300 gold, especially considering that I lacked iron. Those AC were nice to have until I got my War Elephants, muskets and then Cav.

-Arrian

	02-06-2004 23:05									#13
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I disagree, there is no such thing as a useless town. Settle everything. It's cheaper and faster to claim territory peacefully than to rely on your military.

- Base growth/production/commerce in a corrupt city will pay back that Settler.
- Higher unit support, less for the AI.
- Better chances at resources, worse for the AI.
- 'Early warning' buffer and/or AI invasion distraction.
- AI power assessment is biased towards number of cities, population, and territory. Every deal you make will benefit from being stronger.
- 10 turn Workers will really help your pop growth in core cities.
- Avoid wasting food on pop limits in productive cities. Funnel it to new cities.

C3C (or larger mapsize) specific:

- Specialists are godly.
- Support more Armies.

	02-06-2004 23:10									#14
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I agree with Aeson.

Assuming all better sites are taken.

	02-06-2004 23:19									#15
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Hrm. Aeson disagrees with me. I'm probably wrong, then. Trip, well, whateva!

I guess the key is not caring if you have to give away or abandon a couple of those cities due to AI "sneak" attack. That way you don't really have to invest in defending the cities the way I invested in my ivory town. Then they probably are worth it.

I don't do that, except with cities on distant islands I get in a peace treaty. If I build found a city myself, I am inclined to defend it, and defend it properly. That's expensive.

-Arrian

	03-06-2004 00:06									#16
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Part of it is difficulty based. High level AI's have plenty of spare units to stick in a city regardless of how far away it is, and every city they get will mean even more units are produced. Often the far flung AI cities are defended even more than core cities to (I'm assuming) negate the chance of culture flips. The player also needs every little advantage they can get.

Lower level AI's don't have the units to defend everything well. You also don't have to squeeze the last few drops out of that 'wasteland' to gain an advantage on them.

The other part of it is goal based. I generally look at everything as mine... If you don't feel the need to always conquer 66% of the world regardless of how you want to win, the efficiency of claiming that portion you aren't going to claim anyways isn't really a factor.

quote: I guess the key is not caring if you have to give away or abandon a couple of those cities due to AI "sneak" attack. That way you don't really have to invest in defending the cities the way I invested in my ivory town. Then they probably are worth it.

Cannon fodder!

That is a good point though, I tend to place very little 'sentimental value' on anything in the game.

	03-06-2004 00:15									#17
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quote: Part of it is difficulty based. High level AI's have plenty of spare units to stick in a city regardless of how far away it is, and every city they get will mean even more units are produced. Often the far flung AI cities are defended even more than core cities to (I'm assuming) negate the chance of culture flips.

True, true. Since I play down on easy 'ole Monarch, those far-flung AI towns are no problem at all. Higher up and they might be a serious problem. I agree, btw, that the AI stocks up lots of units in those towns to try and prevent culture flips. I've often found myself wondering how and why I'm facing 5+ spearmen in a size1, zero culture town seperated from the enemy's empire by mine. I tend to approach those as easy targets, tossing 2-3 units at them, figuring that will do the job. Too often I come to realize that is a mistake (at least it is if the goal is to take those quickly and be done with them).

quote: That is a good point though, I tend to place very little 'sentimental value' on anything in the game.

Which is one of the reasons you are so damn good at beating the snot out of it, even at the highest levels.

-Arrian

	03-06-2004 01:37									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Assuming all better sites are taken.

Yes, exactly. Before that happens, I see no point in settling far away for no other reason than to grab land. Settle the good sites first, maybe loose, and fill up later. If there's still land available farther away (which will happen mostly on undercrowded maps, like if you play huge with 8 civs only), you still can settle that 30 tiles away city. But to settle there earlier is a waste.

As for many units in cities, I rarely see the AI sending units from its core to those cities. If they have many units in them, they must have built them in the city itself. Since this is mostly on a 1-turn basis, this would take a while. On Emperor and Demigod, which are I presume about the average level the bulk here plays, a Spearman costs 14-16 shields. This translates to 14-16 turns. If they have 5 spearmen there, you must have given them ~75 turns time. That would be very generous. On a sidenote, you can deny the AI to connect the city through roads, if it goes through your territory. To build a harbor takes another 80 turns (unless seafaring). So the probability is high, that those defenders stay Spearmen for a pretty long time, making these cities easy to take with anything stronger than archers.

	03-06-2004 01:49									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Sir Ralph Yes, exactly. Before that happens, I see no point in settling far away for no other reason than to grab land. Settle the good sites first, maybe loose, and fill up later. If there's still land available farther away (which will happen mostly on undercrowded maps, like if you play huge with 8 civs only), you still can settle that 30 tiles away city. But to settle there earlier is a waste. As for many units in cities, I rarely see the AI sending units from its core to those cities. If they have many units in them, they must have built them in the city itself. Since this is mostly on a 1-turn basis, this would take a while. On Emperor and Demigod, which are I presume about the average level the bulk here plays, a Spearman costs 14-16 shields. This translates to 14-16 turns. If they have 5 spearmen there, you must have given them ~75 turns time. That would be very generous. On a sidenote, you can deny the AI to connect the city through roads, if it goes through your territory. To build a harbor takes another 80 turns (unless seafaring). So the probability is high, that those defenders stay Spearmen for a pretty long time, making these cities easy to take with anything stronger than archers.

Precisely.

Good towns for upgrading my Knights, Cavalry, or Leader Farming when I DO get ready to..."settle" there.

Yes I'll settle the locations assuming everything better is settled, I also don't fret if the AI beats me to that tundra because I know it's easy pickings.

	03-06-2004 02:08									#20
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Arrian - IMHO, you are throwing way too much gold at a hopelessly corrupt city. Even at Monarch, you can do better than that.

I suppose the term "useless city" is too extreme, but their are cities that can wait for a secondary rex phase. And if the AI beats you too those cities...so be it.

The AI power assesment is a good point with regards to better trades. I'll give you that point. But I would still put these cities way down in the priority list.

Bottom line, I can see both strategies working fine.

If later in the game these cities become important, than I can take over the city in short order.

	03-06-2004 17:57									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I agree, btw, that the AI stocks up lots of units in those towns to try and prevent culture flips. I've often found myself wondering how and why I'm facing 5+ spearmen in a size1, zero culture town seperated from the enemy's empire by mine. I tend to approach those as easy targets, tossing 2-3 units at them, figuring that will do the job. Too often I come to realize that is a mistake (at least it is if the goal is to take those quickly and be done with them). -Arrian

Heh, I tend to make that same mistake as well! Which probably explains why now I prefer to leave those cities alone (or place 1 knight/calv/whatever nearby to prevent pillaging defenders) and to demand them in the peace process instead.

I've also noticed that occassionally the AI will send defenders and workers across your territory to their far-away cities. Workers occur whenever they want, and military units typically when they're in a war with other AI (I'm assuming that when in a war, the AI decides that those far-away cities are not sufficiently protected).

Anyway, at the end of the day, there are 2 clear general strategies here. The 'grab all you can' philosophy and the 'solid core' school of thought. Strangely enough, I used to be a very much 'solid core' player, but as I've moved up to higher levels, I tend to struggle alot with that, and extensive land grabbing tends to work better for me.

	03-06-2004 18:40									#22
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quote: Arrian - IMHO, you are throwing way too much gold at a hopelessly corrupt city. Even at Monarch, you can do better than that.

I disagree. The city got me Ivory, which served as my 3rd luxury supply (so 2 happy per town with market) allowed me to build the Statue of Zeus*. Sure, a couple of the things I rushed up there were not necessary, in that I could have just built the units in my core and shuttled them up there via galley, and the courthouse was just me being me (I hate corruption. HATE it). The city never was in serious danger of being taken, anyway. It did also manage to culture flip the nearest AI town, too, by the way.

* - The Statue of Zeus, in turn, allowed me to have a solid military even though I lacked iron. That, in turn, allowed me to conquer Persia when they picked a fight, instead of just having a faux war (Persia was across a narrow strait). That gained me luxury #4, several more cities (a couple of which weren't terribly corrupt), and an AC army.

Finally, that city was actually not hopelessly corrupt. In republic, with the courthouse, before I conquered Germany (whose cities were mostly closer to my palace than my ivory city), I think the city was losing ~50% of its commerce to corruption. That's not totally hopeless.

-Arrian

	03-06-2004 18:47									#23
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These strategies aren't that separate like you believe. In most cases (unless you have a very sweet start) you can't "grab land" fast enough without having a "solid core" in the first place. Especially in higher levels, where the food bonus of the AI gets more and more powerful.

To "grab land" with your third or fourth settler just for "grabbing's sake" is for certain a waste, because these cities usually can reproduce the settler only in 30 turns without being able even to build another unit (as opposed to at most 20 turns in your core, with useful stuff like units inbetween), which is a lot and matters much in the early game, because building settlers as fast as possible is the key of success in the REX phase. You can, however, grab land with your tenth or fifteenth settler, after you built a solid core.

	03-06-2004 19:10									#24
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What SR said.

The only time I would use my 3rd or 4th settler to go grab some land outside of my projected core is if I noticed that it was the only way I could get my grubby paws on a source of iron during peaceful REX. I would then consider harming my REX/growth of my core in exchange for securing iron. Ivory might be worth it too. Any other luxury, nah. Maybe my 6th or 7th settler, though. Happiness good.

-Arrian

	03-06-2004 20:01									#25
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Arian - I suppose I didn't know enough about the particular game to make any comments. After you further explaination, I see that the gold was well spent.

As several have said, on higher levels 'Land Grab" doesn't work too well. After the 4th settler (Demi-God and above), sometimes it's "Grab what I can get" strategy. The AI has poplulated most other areas.

Definitely grab the iron. With the scarcity of resources and AL relucatance to trade, you can really get screwed without any iron. I had a resent game I was alone on an island with no iron, no saltpeter, no luxuaries....basically no chance of winning. I still tried, but with no luck.

I would also agree with the Ivory. Ivory is a God send when your competing with those high-level AIs.

	03-06-2004 20:27									#26
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havent pld the Save, but im definatel;y of the opinion that no city is useless.
a hopelessly corrupt city is always worth at least 3gpt (support and 1 commerce in republic.)
once u put in courthouses and marketplaces and let it grow a bit it becomes more valuable. especially when you consider the full lifetime of the city.

and thats forgetting about specialists. particularrly civil engineers. these guys make otherwise uselessly wastefull cities become quiet effective ar producing infrastructure. ofc thats all well ahead of ur game atm.

if you have enuf "corrupt" cities around your core they also make a great soft border with an AI.
if they invade, let em have ur city, if need be. the more cities the AI takes the more his forces get bogged down.

	03-06-2004 22:38									#27
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In general, I think there's no such thing as a bad town.

In most of my games, I am willing to have far-flung cities that operate at a net financial loss. The positives outweigh the negatives. i.e. their use as military bases, potential resource sources, etc.

	04-06-2004 03:14									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I disagree. The city got me Ivory, which served as my 3rd luxury supply .....

I agree with you here, I will go to great lengths to capture new luxuries because trading for them from the AI is a delicate thing and always at great expense. This is particularly true in C3C with luxuries being such very sparse on continental maps.

In my current game I conqured 3/4 of Korea for three luxuries, established two colony cities in Hittite lands (which they had possessed) and am currently in the process of capturing a colony city from India for my eigth luxury. In the process of this I have been at war with the Koreans, Hittites (22 turns), Indians, Portugal, Egypt, and Scandanavia as a democracy with very little WW. As a result I turned a trade imbalance of about 200gpt (5000 lump sum every 20 turns) to a trade surplus of about 600gpt.

	23-06-2004 07:22									#29
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I agree with Sir Ralph. I laugh when I see the AI wating good settlers to grab huge patches of jungle. Later in the game I will thank them for clearing some of the Jungle when I take the city. I use my first sttlers to secure the choice spots and fill out my empire later. If an AI city gets in my way I raze it to the ground if they put it into a shittly spot or keep it if it is in a better spot. I usually use Republic and Democracy governments so having lots of cities for unit support is not needed.

	23-06-2004 20:37									#30
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For far flung cities (non-coastal):

1. get the city trade connected. Have some other city supply the military units.

2. Temple, probably rushed.
3. Marketplace. Rush if needed to maintaign order or if the city reaches size 6 first.

(These two are to bring it into a WLTPD upon reaching size 6, reducing max shield waste from 90% to 80%)

4. Court House : Reducing max shield waste to 80% if not in a WLTPD quite yet. (70% when the city hits size 6 and has no unhappy citizens.) Probably rushed.

5. Aquaduct : Probably rushed. To grow to grow past size 6 to increase raw shield production.

6. Police Station. Probably rushed. Reducing corruption again.

7. Catherdrial. To allow the city to grow further while maintaining WLTPD. Rush if city would fall out of WLTPD prior to natural completion.

8. Libary
9. University
10. Colosuum. Most likely allowing the city to mainitagn a WLTPD past size 12.

11. Hospital. Probably rushed.

12. Factory if this city in on the same land mass your building Hoover Dam. In this case, Rush complete this the turn Hoover Dam compeltes.

13. Bank

14. Stock Exchange