04-06-2004 02:12									#1
	examples of emergent gameplay Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

emergent gameplay(egp from now on) is gameplay which is not intended by the developers but nevertheless is working as designed. egp occurs when players innovate or discover new techniques. highly competitive multiplayer games are frequently subject to egp due to the pressure of competition. many feel egp are exploits that change the nature of the game from the way the designers intended - thus reducing it's purity and balance.

i do not agree with this and generally i feel emergent gameplay is some of the best gameplay in any game. things i discover or deduce for myself bring immense satisfaction. applying egp myself(even if found on the web) usually requires much more skill or thought than designer intended gameplay. below are some basic examples of egp.

rocket jumping in quake(using the blast radius for momentum) is classic egp. similarly many other fps shooters have grenade, bfg, plasma, exploding barrels, etc which can be exploited in the same fashion. anything that has a blast radii will be used now. it has reached the point where all these types of gameplay are common in multiplayer/single player fps if still difficult to use effectively due to the skill required and the fluid nature of fps games.

another example of egp i came across the other day took place in warcraft 3: the frozen throne. wc3:tft is a rts where each hero unit starts out with a teleportation scroll so he can go back to defend his base if it is rushed while he is out creeping(aka killing ai monsters for experience). however, one race in wc3:tft has the ability to move it's primary home base unit(the night elf tree) so it is possible to use it as an anchor to teleport anywhere while this is not possible as the other races unless you build bases everywhere. what makes the the night elf tree even more special is that it not only moves but it can also eat tress to regain health thereby in the process clearing forests which it can then walk through. you could see how this could be used to sneak up behind an enemy base, surrounded by forest, then use the night elf tree to teleport to thereby bypassing the enemies base defense and catching them totally by surprise as you strike deep into their soft underbelly. this is just what happens in the wc3:tft replay i have linked below. since i'm pretty clueless on wc3 i don't know if this is a commonly used egp stratagem(is it drspike?) but certainly fits the definition of egp to a tee. plus this replay is also funny for all the **** talking(bnet is a raving hive of adolescent hate).

http://wc3.warcraftstrategy.com/Rep...eplays/8716.w3g

do you have any examples of egp to share? what do you think of egp? discuss!

Last edited by pg on 04-06-2004 at 02:19

	04-06-2004 03:37									#2
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"Cat and Mouse" is the best mode in Project Gotham Racing 2, and it's just things people do.

4 people, 2 are "cats" (a supercar like the Ferrari Enzo), and 2 are mice (a Mini). A cat and a mouse on each time. The race is actually between the Minis, and the Ferraris are there to try to obstruct the other team's mini from finishing first.

	04-06-2004 04:37									#3
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Farm under cities in Civ, or CtP2 (or mines under cities in CtP1), where its even more effective. The funny thing about this "trick" is that one of the screenshots on the back of the CtP2 box show a city with a farm under it, is it intended?

In Counter-Strike there used to be bunny-hopping, where you could move a lot faster by doing fast diagonal jumps linked together, probably dates back to Quake. This allowed that player to get to a chokepoint or other strong area of the map before anyone else. They eventually removed it from CS by slowing down the player everytime they landed from a jump.

	04-06-2004 06:58									#4
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Strafe-jumping became such a huge part of FPS games that Painkiller has reintroduced it into the game as an option you can enable (Painkiller rules BTW).

Crawler Upgrading, Size 1 Military Support Bases, and a billion other things are part of SMAC now.

Wolfenstein - Tides of War had some messed up multiplayer tactics that would enable you to lauch a respawning character with an airstrike to the back of the level, making it so you don't have to certain areas.

	04-06-2004 07:02									#5
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UT2004 Onslaught mode...

Attaching 8 sticky grenades to a Manta, driving it at a point, then jumping out before you get there essentially creates a huge bomb you can lauch at high speeds at people.

	04-06-2004 09:56									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora In Counter-Strike there used to be bunny-hopping, where you could move a lot faster by doing fast diagonal jumps linked together, probably dates back to Quake.

yeah it is all the way back to quake(cs is built on the q1/qw engine though so it automatically had the same egp here). rounding errors in the more current id games(quake 1 and up) give you extra oomph which can be taken advantage of by moving in circular motions and hopping. you need to hop because air friction is little or none while ground friction is much higher. you can still move faster than standard walking speed on the ground by moving in certain ways(strafe running diagonally like how it was done in doom) but it's slow compared to bunnying. btw for those that don't know, it's called bunnying because you look like a rabbit due to all the hopping.

bunnying is classic egp and it's interesting because how vocal proponents both for and against it is. as you mentioned counter-strike banned bunnying by hardwiring the game against it(even though it effected others things too which could to have been said to be working as intended). generally egp gameplay, especially in multiplayer, requires much more skill so the mob(masses of unskilled players and newbies) seriously dislikes the advantage it gives players who can do it. most of the mob goes so far as to label it cheating even though they could learn to bunny also.

it is quite hard to learn to bunny so that maybe the main reason for their dislike. even the best players will take a few hours of practice(which isn't that fun) to perfect it. it took me a full month of semi-regular play in quake to become a natural at it. once i mastered it though the benefits were enormous. i could jump farther(due to my momentum gained by bunnying) and move faster. this is very important as quake is a game of both tactics and strategy. faster movement makes you harder to hit, lets you control powerups better as you can move back and forth between them quicker and sometimes being able to jump farther opens up previously unaccessable routes or shortcuts.

john carmack seriously considered changing q3 so you couldn't jump twice in a row without a long delay to get rid of bunnying. surprisingly his main reason iirc wasn't the effects on gameplay but how stupid it looked(maybe an emotional reaction?). in the end he relented but quake would have been very different if he hadn't. it's interesting that he never considered the same with rocket jumping afaik so maybe after one generation egp is working as intended if kept or not patched out. he did remove blast radii causing damage through skinny floors in q3 but it took a at least a year(patch 1.17 iirc).

	04-06-2004 14:01									#7
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Bunnyhopping in CS is stupid because it contradicts the whole game basically. The developers intended to make it a "realistic" game (of course not 100% but you know what I mean) and bunnyhopping does not only look silly, it just doesn't feel right in in the whole design in my opinion. Some say it requires skill etc, but that's not entirely true; all it takes is practice and really anybody can do it once they know how exactly it works.
However skill is something you learn bit by bit, but not everybody can get as skilled as certain other players, no matter how much time a player invests in the game. Rocketjumping requires skill for example, because the rocketjumping itself is possible for anyone to learn, but to get the maximum effect out of it requires a lot of skill. I've seen some Quakers at a LAN who did the craziest rocketjumps during matches (so not only trickjumps) with people unloading tons of ammo on them and that's something not everybody can do.

Examples of epg? Civ2 (and other civs most likely) is full of it. It's just amazing how much exploits, tricks, and more you can do without actually cheating (though some techniques are regarded as unfair and almost cheating) and I don't think there are any games that have more epg than those games

	04-06-2004 14:15									#8
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Rocketjumping just requires practice. Do it enough times and you will get the timing perfect.

	04-06-2004 14:45									#9
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Interesting thread PG.

My take is that in any game with any depth whatsoever there will be actions that can be used in ways that the designers did not intend. MP competition amongst 100,000s or more soon sniffs these out.

It doesn't matter as long as it isn't game breaking, which is sometimes is, and needs to be patched. Stuff like rocket jumping requires skill to do well (Skanky its one thing to do it on an empty map, but doing it perfectly in the middle of a firefight whilst arcing away to just land on a platform whilst you switch to rail, pick someone off, then switch back to rockets just as you reach the apex of your jump - now that takes practice ) and is not a game breaking advantage.

The question remains whether you want something skillful but unintended to be part of the game - each case has to be taken on it's merits IMO.

	04-06-2004 14:50									#10
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Which part of "requires practice" implied that I thought the opposite?

	04-06-2004 14:54									#11
	Re: examples of emergent gameplay Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by pg another example of egp i came across the other day took place in warcraft 3: the frozen throne. wc3:tft is a rts where each hero unit starts out with a teleportation scroll so he can go back to defend his base if it is rushed while he is out creeping(aka killing ai monsters for experience). however, one race in wc3:tft has the ability to move it's primary home base unit(the night elf tree) so it is possible to use it as an anchor to teleport anywhere while this is not possible as the other races unless you build bases everywhere. what makes the the night elf tree even more special is that it not only moves but it can also eat tress to regain health thereby in the process clearing forests which it can then walk through. you could see how this could be used to sneak up behind an enemy base, surrounded by forest, then use the night elf tree to teleport to thereby bypassing the enemies base defense and catching them totally by surprise as you strike deep into their soft underbelly. this is just what happens in the wc3:tft replay i have linked below. since i'm pretty clueless on wc3 i don't know if this is a commonly used egp stratagem(is it drspike?)

This is not used amongst good players very often for many reasons. Getting into the back of someones base is not a huge advantage mostly, and using your tree is this way means the elf cannot get gold. Plus the initial tree is upgraded, and if you lose it you must tech again from scratch.

However a game like WC3 has many many more examples of EGP than FPS ever will have. There have been tonnes and tonnes. It is more important in RTS to have constant patching, because EGP can become abusive to the point where it breaks the game.

Clear examples are offensive Ancients in RoC, offensive towers, certain unit configurations like mass casters in RoC. Intriguingly all of RoC was EGP in a way, since the way the game was played for 1 year (in terms of units built) was not intended at all, yet it was fun and reasonably balanced so it was left that way until TFT.

TFT has been better (more varied), but still there have been examples of EGP, such as buying some really powerful items from the shop at the start. In the latest patch they are more expensive.

Overall constant patching is more necessary in RTS, but EGP is sometimes just left because it provides some depth (and necessary skill) that the designers didn't mean without breaking the game.

	04-06-2004 21:50									#12
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quote: Originally posted by DrSpike This is not used amongst good players very often for many reasons. Getting into the back of someones base is not a huge advantage mostly, and using your tree is this way means the elf cannot get gold. Plus the initial tree is upgraded, and if you lose it you must tech again from scratch.

they didn't use their primary tree, you'd have seen if you watched the replay. plus the game was on plains of snow 4v4 so they tped 4 armies directly into the base whereas they'd have to walk across the huge plains of snow map. tping 4 armies directly into a base basically means it's a dead base. also if you look at the plains of snow map the bases are very vulernable to this type of attack due to the geography(because of it's size and the forest around the bases). you should watch the replay! aren't tps also easier to get in tft since you can buy them at your base now?

quote: However a game like WC3 has many many more examples of EGP than FPS ever will have. There have been tonnes and tonnes. It is more important in RTS to have constant patching, because EGP can become abusive to the point where it breaks the game.

yes, i agree rts are much more complex than fps games. i'm not so certain if it really has more egp in use though. it seems more like rts games has imbalances(aka cheese) which can be taken advantage of by using it to the detriment of how the game was intended to be played. however, the unit being cheesed with is usually being used as intended if in greater numbers than normal. since rts units strengths, etc generally are the cause of this and their stats are listed in game i'm not sure if it's as egpish as say rocket jumping or offensive towers(which are both used in non-intended creative ways). massings units of a certain type to beat your enemy i feel is due to poor design not players discovering egp necessarily.

quote: TFT has been better (more varied), but still there have been examples of EGP, such as buying some really powerful items from the shop at the start. In the latest patch they are more expensive.

is that really egp? again it seems more like an imbalance. in a way it's egp because it's probably not something the designers intended to happen but it's an obvious thing to do. maybe it's egp lite because it's being taken advantage of by using it earlier than normal but still used as intended. stronger exampes of egp are usually creative and unexpected.

quote: Overall constant patching is more necessary in RTS, but EGP is sometimes just left because it provides some depth (and necessary skill) that the designers didn't mean without breaking the game.

rts are in a catch 22 because of the constant change and de-chessing going on. i'm not saying it shouldn't happen since it does bring vibrance to rts gameplay but if you look at quake 1(the qw version) for instance egp is still being discovered. a changing environment will almost always bring more egp but static environments have egp also.

the static environment still has the same pressure of competition which seems to lead to more varied egp in some cases. whereas in a changing environment egp will be by the weakest path of resistance in many cases. static environments build egp up over time and keep doing so. a changing environment will lose and gain egp with each patch leading to a more flavor of the month type gameplay where you race to find the new dominating strategy or tactic. neither is perfect but constant change probably leads to more dynamics overall with the effect of less predictable gameplay. the ability to innovate, and adjust on the fly would be a more valuable player skill in a rts.

i have a feeling i might be wrong here but egp gameplay in rts seems to go underground as it gets weak then reemerge as patching brings it to prominence again. in a static fps which is much less complexity and more balanced(even in regards to egp) you can have more strong egp gameplay which is in constant use. or am i totally clueless in rts?

	04-06-2004 22:21									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus Bunnyhopping in CS is stupid because it contradicts the whole game basically. The developers intended to make it a "realistic" game (of course not 100% but you know what I mean) and bunnyhopping does not only look silly, it just doesn't feel right in in the whole design in my opinion.

i agree bunnying doesn't fit into cs.

quote: Some say it requires skill etc, but that's not entirely true; all it takes is practice and really anybody can do it once they know how exactly it works.

i don't want to get into a big argument over this(because i think we disagree) yet you says bunnying doesn't require skill. this really seems to be an emotional reaction because it does take lots of skill. in fact i'd say it's probably one of the hardest things about fps games, especially learning to bunny initially. like i mentioned earlier this is probably why so many people hate it since it's not fun to learn and games are supposed to be fun. plus playing against people who can bunny is not fun if you cannot yourself. bunnying is egp which is hugely imbalancing and leads to have and have nots(those who can and can't bunny). it's practically impossible to be able to outplay someone who can bunny if you yourself cannot.

quote: However skill is something you learn bit by bit, but not everybody can get as skilled as certain other players, no matter how much time a player invests in the game. Rocketjumping requires skill for example, because the rocketjumping itself is possible for anyone to learn, but to get the maximum effect out of it requires a lot of skill.

bunnying is different than rocket jumping in skill application i agree. you either can bunny or you can't. there really isn't a skill gradient like rocket jumping. in fact the better you can bunny the easier it becomes but the worse you are they harder it is to keep doing. bunnying well reinforces itself because the faster you go the easier it is to keep your momentum. the hard part of bunnying is getting started and manuvering around obstacles. yet there is still quite a bit of skill difference at the higher levels of bunnying and speed between masters and regular players when bunnying can be over many hundreds of units per second(for some prespective standard quake running speed is 320 units per second and the best players can move around at 500-1000+ units per second when bunnying).

in comparion rocket jumping has a large skill difference in it's usage. you have just the standard easy rocket jump to move up to a higher platform or you have the harder backwards rocket jump, or the even harder forward rocket jump. then of course there are numerous combos and the ability to fluidly perform rocket jumps as you play(this also applies to bunnying and rocket jumping can be used in tandem with bunnying to great effect).

quote: I've seen some Quakers at a LAN who did the craziest rocketjumps during matches (so not only trickjumps) with people unloading tons of ammo on them and that's something not everybody can do.

yeah that's true but bunnying also has it's insane skill feats(long jumping the gap at bridge to rail on q3dm6 for instance) so it's not as clear cut as you make it out to be.

	04-06-2004 22:24									#14
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i'd go indepth about racing egp or civ egp if i was more knowledgable. i have a hunch that fps/rts games have the most egp. i know civ has some and racing games a little but they both pale in comparsion to fps/rts games imo. maybe someone could explain some in depth egp about the civ/racing and prove me wrong?

	04-06-2004 22:27									#15
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Not clueless I'd say, since I agree imbalance isn't always going to be an example of EGP. My shop example wasn't a good one.

The others are good examples though. Essentially the game (RoC) was made with the intention that you built tier 1 whilst teching (as usually happens in TFT), but in reality (in response to the addition of creeping to the game) the base defences were too strong, and the higher tech units too good, so that orcs and elf in particular would just skip tier 1 and dual hero creep until casters started to come out. These were intended as backup units, but that's not how it turned out, so I'd class is as a form of EGP, and a particular powerful form, since in the end Blizzard decided to balance the game *around* the EGP rather than make it work as they intended.

Also the offensive ancients/towering is another good example. Units meant for defence being used for attack. Offensive towering is still in the game, so it's not just an imbalance. It is, however, an element in the game that wasn't intended initially.

	04-06-2004 22:56									#16
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wtf, one of my posts contained a copy of part of itself twice even though i only had it in there once. i think i fixed it now.

	04-06-2004 23:29									#17
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We forgive you.

	04-06-2004 23:43									#18
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in a game that sucks, like FFX-2, taping down the x button and walking away while it auto gains exp for you.

	04-06-2004 23:46									#19
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in civ2, using a spy to detonate a nuke. everybody declares war on you, but the good thing is, so far as i can tell, the only nation with whom your reputation has fallen is the one that was nuked.

	05-06-2004 01:33									#20
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Take a look up at the Civ2 and Civ3 strategy forums, and you'll see just about every exploit imaginable.

	05-06-2004 02:16									#21
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ICS is the mother of worst 'egp's..

	05-06-2004 02:32									#22
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yeah and civ 3 was practically designed around it. even the ai does it which forces you to do so too. one example of egp you'd want to eliminate.

	05-06-2004 03:59									#23
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You can't ICS in civ3 because after you build about 2 cities the ridiculous corruption of shields makes it a complete waste of time.

The whole game is dedicated to stamping out ICS. Bah!

-Jam

	05-06-2004 08:40									#24
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While I'm not sure if they count, a lot of character builds for Diablo2 involved squeezing as much out of the game mechanics as possible.

One in particular was a missle enchantress for patch 1.10. This was a sorceress who focused on warmth, enchant and fire mastery. These were enchanced with a combination of Razortail and Demon Machine(unique chu-ko-nu) and it's exploding bolts.

Razortail granted 50% pierce which stacked with demon machine's 50% pierce. Unlike the amazon pierce skill, the chance to pierce was always 100% no matter how many mosters the bolt passed through.

Added to this was the fact that enchant also added to the explosive damage from the crossbow. Fire mastery also added it's multiplier twice for the sorceress when she used a melee weapon.

The potential damage rivaled that of a javelin using amazon with lightning fury. In addition, she could cast enchant on fellow players adding 1000's of points of fire damage to their attacks.

	05-06-2004 09:08									#25
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Yeah, Diablo II had a lot of "features" that got changed by later patches. I know that by equipping a certain bow- it's been a long time so I forget the name- you could have infinitely piercing Sorceress spells. The bow granted auto-pierce (as in, it'd fly through targets and keep going, hitting many people), and for whatever reason this worked on your Glacial Spikes as well, so you'd cause multiple explosions of coldness in a pack of enemies. They changed that later. Also, Amazons with Spears used to use Jab as their main melee attack, partially because it ignored freezing or any other attack speed modifier. Another thing changed later.

Unfortunately, the line between emergent play & intended strategy can be a bit fuzzy. Blizzard games seem popular references, since weird strategies are most often used against fellow human players, or in highly cooperative games. In a solo-strat game, like Final Fantasy Tactics, it seems more like "AI exploits" than emegent gameplay. I'll add that card-collecting games (like Etherlords or Magic: The Gathering) have tons of emergent gameplay- all sorts of combos that can come squirreling out of the woodwork that were unforseen by the creators.

Nice avatar, btw, Qilue. First time I've seen someone else also take from Suikoden III on these boards...

	06-06-2004 04:39									#26
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I'm surprised noone has yet mentioned RPGs... In BGII, for example, there are so many spells and items that, inevitably, you can combine them for strange or powerful results which were unlikely to have been thought of by the designers.

I'm also reminded of Magic: The Gathering. I played an old computer version of this for a while until I constructed a deck which always won, and then discovered that it consisted almost entirely of cards which were banned .

	06-06-2004 08:10									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Smiley Take a look up at the Civ2 and Civ3 strategy forums, and you'll see just about every exploit imaginable.

yup, we've discovered quite a few nasty moves in the PTWDG.

	06-06-2004 09:42									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski You can't ICS in civ3 because after you build about 2 cities the ridiculous corruption of shields makes it a complete waste of time. The whole game is dedicated to stamping out ICS. Bah! -Jam

i hope you are kidding because everytime i play civ 3 the better i ics the easier it is for me to win(even if half my cities produce near nothing). as a caveat i don't usually play the higher difficulty levels(generally i play monarch) so maybe it is different there.

	06-06-2004 14:06									#29
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I thought PG would make the point that SP EGP is not as pressing as MP EGP. In any complex game (like a TBS or RPG game) there will be some EGP, but in MP there are pressing issues about whether to concentrate on balance around an EGP or eliminating the EGP.

	07-06-2004 23:22									#30
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multiplayer is always more pressing because it's always more competitive. egp in single player generally is bad no matter what. in single player you play against the ai and any egp by definition is going to be game breaking more or less. if you look at eu2 it has tried to fix some of the egp that was discovered. generally they did this by removing or changing it not by making the ai take advantage of it(which would have been better but much harder to do). egp almost always makes single player no fun and not challenging.

in multiplayer players usually have a stronger voice and if they like egp it generally has a good chance of staying. in single you are really playing against the developers so it's your voice vs theirs(and we know how that usually goes).