12-06-2004 01:47									#31
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I like the idea. May I offer some suggestions and adjustments?

1. Move City 2 a square SE. That will put it only one turn from City 1. We pick up a gold grass square to replace the one we build on.

2. Move City 3 a square SE. That will put it only one turn from both Caralis and Two Whales. We also get a gold river grass square.

3. City 1 is already one turn from Panama and Two Whales, no change.

4. City 4 will be on a gold river grass square and will have two more available plus a Special and a Hidden Special (Is red square 1 a Hidden? I think so, but there is something about those that baffles me at times. Sometimes I mine those and nothing appears).

5. The Road out of City 3 puts us on river travel.

6. Road changes (I can't alter Paint very well). Road out of Cartenna should cross the gold square south. Road out of City 3 should cross the Wine.

Do these adjustments sound good?

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	12-06-2004 02:23									#32
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Good idea adding the proposed roads; thanks.

If by "gold grass" you mean shielded grass, I don't like the changes. I have a strong preference for building on unshielded grass.

Those "gold" tiles really are golden and I hate to waste them by building on them, unless there is no choice. Having the cities 3 clicks apart is not so important in my mind. Most of the coming build orders will be 6-movers across roads. If it is because of units ending their turns afield, each city can have one with no problem. I have always assumed that when it became the time to go to war we would not stay in Republic.

1) That picked up gold grass will already be used by Cartenna. So it is not an even-up change.

2) I had a slightly different idea for developing the "River Subdivision" that is based on three cities. One of them will need that rivered gold tile you use as a replacement.

4) Your suggested hidden tile will not reveal a special. Sorry.

I will work on another map to make this more visual.

Monk

	12-06-2004 02:52									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Good idea adding the proposed roads; thanks. If by "gold grass" you mean shielded grass, I don't like the changes. I have a strong preference for building on unshielded grass.

Gold/shield same thing. I see people using both terms, and I have always interpreted the graphic as a gold nugget. No problem.

quote: Those "gold" tiles really are golden and I hate to waste them by building on them, unless there is no choice.

I am actually embarrassed to realize that I was getting no benefit by building cities on gold grass squares all these years. It's amazing the things you don't notice until someone points them out. But that is one of the greatest benefits of these democracy games.

quote: Having the cities 3 clicks apart is not so important in my mind. Most of the coming build orders will be 6-movers across roads.

We've been in enough situations where 1-move units were all that saved a city or immediately re-captured it. If we are going to overlap our cities, it's worth keeping them 3 road movements within each other unless thre is a definite loss of some other value.

I forgot to mention one reason to put City 2 next to the Lake. We can put a ship in the lake to aid in recapturing the city if it is taken. The AI does that to me often enough with good effect that I learned the value of that trick.

quote: If it is because of units ending their turns afield, each city can have one with no problem. I have always assumed that when it became the time to go to war we would not stay in Republic.

No, I wasn't worried about that. I agree completely that making war in Republic would be (shall we say) "less than ideal".

quote: 1) That picked up gold grass will already be used by Cartenna. So it is not an even-up change.

Not all squares are used by every city every turn. When the colony cities reach size 5, we are likely to be Xining or not on various schedules (truly hideous to administer, but sometimes required). For maximum gain (which we need) I foresee alternating overlapping cities to squeeze the most out of all good terrain.

quote: 2) I had a slightly different idea for developing the "River Subdivision" that is based on three cities. One of them will need that rivered gold tile you use as a replacement.

On my own, I would set cities in the river area differently (more perfectionist style). But I was trying to arrange things as you suggested in the overlapping plan. I could be easily persuaded to maximize river efficiency independent of the other cities.

quote: 4) Your suggested hidden tile will not reveal a special. Sorry.

Told you those things baffle me. Could you explain why (for my education)?

quote: I will work on another map to make this more visual.

	12-06-2004 05:28									#34
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For now, no city can grow to 2 w/o a Temple. After nine cities, a Temple will be necessary at founding, that is, the first citizen will be an Elvis until the Temple completes. Cities can grow to size 5 with a Colosseum if they have the food. In order to have the maximum shields for each city, it is imperitive that new cities be built on unshielded grass, ONLY.

The following map will give us 13 cities in the colony. Each one will be capable of growing to size 5 with at least 6 (up to 9) shields and most will have a food surplus of one at that size. A special case is Caralis which only has shield tiles for size 4 (the rest are food only). This is an ambitious project as it calls for 7 new cities, each with a Temple, and 13 Colosseums; also, there will be 2 mined hidden specials and a minimum of 22 tiles needing roads.

(Because of the massive cash need for so many Colosseums, we may decide to forgo build them for the nonce. But I wanted to illustrate why big cities are not in order at the present time.)

My recommendation is to build the next cities from Panama with the "River Subdivision last. Mining the hidden specials will allow for a very powerful city and should not be held to the end. I removed the map grid from this in the hope that fewer lines would be easier to 'see'.

Monk

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	12-06-2004 07:54									#35
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I'd avoid building roads over Mountains with Settlers unless absolutely required or for improving Specials. It just takes so long! That Road between the 2 new cities south of Caralis would take forever.

	12-06-2004 09:45									#36
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Yes, it will take a while. But the road goes over a hill, not a mountain.

But, truthfully, once we get to the "free" limit for cities without disorder, the River Subdivision will be on hold until we can get the cash for their Temples in 2-3 turns. And that brings to mind another thought. We need to get Explosives soon along with the other must haves. If we research WC, Iron W, Bridge, then we can road the river.

I think it's a pretty tight, efficent grouping of cities.

Monk

	12-06-2004 09:50									#37
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I am getting a headache trying to imagine these cities, but in keeping with out MCS strategy, I give all proposed sites a and admit I haven't put too much thought into any of them, but that is one of the advantages of many cities, placement becomes less important.

I will agree with Cavebear on the roads though as I think we should avoid hills (or mountains) if possible, with the exception of the Wine (which would be worth roading) and any Gold if we find any. Aside from these two though, I would like to see us stick to grassland or plains if possible, and forrest (or swamp/jungle) if necessary.

Only point with the settlers is we can't afford for them to wander aimlessly so they should move from point A to B and settle the city, and advance planning so that they are somewhat co-ordinated would make sense (Sparrowhawk points out the obvious ).

	12-06-2004 10:08									#38
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If it would help "see" the Big Picture better, I could put this all together in cheat mode and post a save. It would be enormously easier to comprehend and would show with much more detail how the different cities were working the various tiles. I would not be opening the map or moving the Explorer, just building the cities and putting in the roads.

Let me know if that would be okay. I don't want anyone having a headache!!

Monk

	12-06-2004 10:54									#39
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While I think it would be okay, I don't think it is necessary (or not for me anyway). What I am having trouble visualizing is all of these cities size 5-6 and what squares will be used by which and what roads will be needed etc.

I do think that the River System is not so far out of reach and would like some of our settlers very soon to head in that direction (both because it is available and food and roads become non-issues on river systems such as these).

	12-06-2004 11:06									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Sparrowhawk What I am having trouble visualizing is all of these cities size 5-6 and what squares will be used by which and what roads will be needed etc.

This is precisely what my proposal would allow folk to see. As a save, you could open any city and see where the workers were.

And it is size 5 max, as a general rule. Beyond five and redheads start appearing, except perhaps in a city with 3-4 trade specials. The lookup in the Happiness Screen is, 'At size 5, are all the heads red?' If there are blue heads, another pop can probably be added--if there is food enough.

Monk

	12-06-2004 11:44									#41
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I quite like that rivered grassland tile 4 tiles S of Car. We get an extra trade arrow plus the small defensive bonus for the river.

RJM at Sleeper's

I posted this before I realised that there was another complete page of discussion (and maps) that I hadn't read. However, the point about cities on rivered tiles getting an extra trade arrow and improved defence still stands - but the choice of tile to build on changes.

Last edited by rjmatsleepers on 12-06-2004 at 11:53

	12-06-2004 21:19									#42
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I think using the cheat mode to produce an information map would be OK. It's not like anything other than the city grid would be revealed. It's just something that easier to do than drawing in all the grids.

	12-06-2004 23:49									#43
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear I think using the cheat mode to produce an information map would be OK. It's not like anything other than the city grid would be revealed. It's just something that easier to do than drawing in all the grids.

Okay. With that I offer this as a possibility for future city sites and development.

Monk

	13-06-2004 02:07									#44
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Looks generally OK to me. Unless there are specific points of improvement (and such are welcomed), this is what I will be basing immediate Settler use for.

Are there any better places for the cities? Should the roads follow another path?

	13-06-2004 02:18									#45
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Thanks, cavebear.

Other will weigh-in on variations. I just want to emphasize putting down the roads first before mining for specials.

Monk

	13-06-2004 03:01									#46
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Well, that's an interesting question, Monk. As we are not under attack, the road connections are not too important (would help the Setlers to move about though.

But is putting down the Roads first *really* more important than the mining of Specials? Specials count for a lot in cities.

	13-06-2004 03:33									#47
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear Well, that's an interesting question, Monk. As we are not under attack, the road connections are not too important (would help the Setlers to move about though. But is putting down the Roads first *really* more important than the mining of Specials? Specials count for a lot in cities.

Well, it takes 2 turns for a road on grass, 4T on forrest, and an unroaded forrest slows even 2-movers. So, I think, where roads will HAVE to go thru that tile, then yes, it is REALLY more important. In the begining, there are other forest tiles that can be worked. Maybe this is a case of, 'your mileage may vary'.

And who's to say when we MIGHT come under attack??

Monk

	13-06-2004 08:00									#48
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quote: But is putting down the Roads first *really* more important than the mining of Specials? Specials count for a lot in cities.

No, the roads would be better, since they reduce the size of our empire to 1/3 of what it was before, and would assist us on defense, should we find ourselves in that situation.

As for the difficult section of road, rather than building a road on the hill, let's chop down a tree, and then build the road on the rivers. Saves us plenty of time, since time is of the essence.

How far are we from Fundy?

	13-06-2004 08:22									#49
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Fundy?? Not close...

Mono next, then...
Wheel..Engr'g..Invent...Demo
WC..Iron..GP..Metal..Conscrip
Fundy

Unless I missed a few, 11, if there are no intervening choices. Not an altogether bad list, though.

Monk

Last edited by Bloody Monk on 13-06-2004 at 09:08

	13-06-2004 23:44									#50
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Mining and/or Roading Specials will make our Workers more productive and productivity will help us build units and infrastructure faster. Investments usually pay off better in the longer term.

I'm not against Roads by any means. Just thinking that we will get them all quicker if we invest a little in getting the most out of Specials first.

	14-06-2004 01:06									#51
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Should I do a poll?? There seems to be disagreement about sequencing the building of roads and mining of grass to reveal hidden specials.

Monk

	14-06-2004 06:24									#52
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Might help...