04-06-2004 22:12									#1
	Ideas for City Planning. Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

City Planner appears to have a multi-variant pallet of possible choices. What to build in the cities, which is getting more interesting; where and when to build new cities; whether to build new cities or roads, etc, first; where to place workers in the cities, food or shield tiles; these are some of the choices. What other questions should we look into here??

Monk

Last edited by Bloody Monk on 04-06-2004 at 22:17

	04-06-2004 22:22									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

Will someone please change the Subject line of this thread from "Poll" to Ideas for City Plans, or some such title. I will try again to make an actual poll.

Monk

	05-06-2004 05:29									#3
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Changed as requested. That much, at least, is within my "mini-Ming" powers.

	05-06-2004 05:46									#4
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I think for now that ships will be our easiest way of connecting cities. Building Settlers to connect them with roads would be a luxury we can't afford yet. We may have to consider improving terrain. That's one reason I was very reluctant to use our NONE Settler to establish a city, but we needed the city, too.

We need to watch the cities carefully to make sure what we build will pay back the costs (initial and continuing). I'll admit I tend to build Marketplaces and Libraries before they are really cost-justified.

I don't like pre-set building queues, and we don't have so many cities that looking at each one individually is a burden.

I think we want to emphasize population growth in the new cities at first. It is frustrating not to build structures/units quickly, but pop growth pays off in the longer term. But even then, some balance can work out best depending on Specials.

Now that we have a few new cities, we should focus on really quality locations. I'll take a Whale anywhere, but we should try to find the 3 or 4 Specials sites when possible. The delay in establishing new cities is worth the return from multiple Specials sites.

I know this is obvious to all of us, but you asked and we get anxious for cities and I wanted to set out some major points to focus on.

	05-06-2004 09:29									#5
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I question whether we need to have cities with 3-4 specials. First, there is not much time left; and second, 3-4 is the size limit with a temple and elvi and we don't have the cash to build n-1 colosseums. In a cluster of ten new cities, one or two might be all we can support at larger sizes. It would be different if it were 1836 BC.

As for Markets and Libraries, because of ongoing maintance and the initial cost, it will be cheaper to increase trade arrows by building more cities.

This game is still winable I think. If we can quickly stand up 30+ tightly built cities, drop in some barracks, and crank out a horde of vet Crooks, we might be able to take over our island, catch up in tech, and go hunting for the rest of the AI. We have at least two civs with some of their cities close by, Egyptians and Suefolk, so there appears to be a target rich environment to play about in.

Monk

	05-06-2004 10:08									#6
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We need more discussion on this. I inherently dislike ICS, but I will carry out the wishes of the Citizens.

	05-06-2004 10:40									#7
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear We need more discussion on this. I inherently dislike ICS, but I will carry out the wishes of the Citizens.

Well, I agree. As a general rule, I would not ICS either. I just don't see any other way to, in the time remaining, get the critical mass to compete in THIS game. Perhaps you could give an outline of another path. My vision has become too myopic, I fear.

Monk

	05-06-2004 19:15									#8
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Does it have to be ICS? Couldn't we cluster cities close together so that their radii overlap without going all the way to ICS? This is accepted as just what you should do in Civ3 if you are a serious player unless you are prepared for a much harder time.

I guess I'm swinging for a Many City Sleaze rather than an Infinite City Sleaze.

	05-06-2004 22:21									#9
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt Does it have to be ICS? Couldn't we cluster cities close together so that their radii overlap without going all the way to ICS? This is accepted as just what you should do in Civ3 if you are a serious player unless you are prepared for a much harder time. I guess I'm swinging for a Many City Sleaze rather than an Infinite City Sleaze.

Great name!! And this is exactly what I had in mind, but didn't know what to call it. With a roiling ball of size 7-8 cities, each pumping in 7-10 shields/turn, we will have a good base from which to take over the world.

Monk

	06-06-2004 22:16									#10
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Sounds good to me. As I posted elsewhere, I sometimes overlap Specials to assure they are always in use among 2 cities. I do it in games where the cities aren't likely to all need to grow to full size. I would never do it in a Democracy (government), trade, Spaceship game.

	07-06-2004 07:58									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I have not done this before, so I hope I get it right. If all comes through properly, the red squares are suggestions for the first three new cities, all canals. The blue squares are the next two fill in cities.

What do you think of this??

Monk

Attachment: '36 colony-2a.jpg
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	07-06-2004 08:51									#12
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I like all but the one southwest of Utica. I think that one could be even better if one square to the southeast (still a canal, less overlap with both Utica and the one Blue site). I realize it is on a shielded grassland square and I think that you lose the benefit of gaining a shield, but I still like this site slightly better then the one proposed.

Great Map though! I like it alot

	07-06-2004 10:14									#13
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I like the red ones, but I'm not too sure about the blue ones. There may be good land to the south west and south east of the land we have explored.

RJM at Sleeper's

	07-06-2004 10:41									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Sparrowhawk I like all but the one southwest of Utica. I think that one could be even better if one square to the southeast (still a canal, less overlap with both Utica and the one Blue site). I realize it is on a shielded grassland square and I think that you lose the benefit of gaining a shield, but I still like this site slightly better then the one proposed. Great Map though! I like it alot

Thanks!! I was middling amazed it came out; but, having seen Straybow do that sort of canal propaganda for years, I thought I'd give it a go.

I am reluctant to use up a shielded grass but your modified proposal works too.

Monk

	07-06-2004 10:51									#15
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by rjmatsleepers I like the red ones, but I'm not too sure about the blue ones. There may be good land to the south west and south east of the land we have explored. RJM at Sleeper's

Well the blue ones are meant to fill in the area we now know. I assumed these five would be just the begining of city planting in this general area.

But, I would be reluctant to even explore to the southeast for a while yet. There is a good chance that the Suefolk live in that direction--remember Killdeer??--and I hope we don't meet anyone locally until we can defend ourselves. Our need to get Poly, then Mono is why I think that Salt van should be delivered rather than continuing its walkabout. Ditto for Apolytonia pushing out the Gold van. The extra beakers from those deliveries will get us Crooks all the faster.

Monk

	08-06-2004 00:00									#16
	Tired of ads?

The canal idea is interesting. Do we need 2 of them, though? It would be nice to be able to take advantage of the 2 Whales and 1 Wine in a single city. That city would grow quickly and produce shields and trade.

If we build the canal between Caralis and Malaca, we should move the northernmost new city 1 square NE to gain the shield square.

	09-06-2004 17:29									#17
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Seems to me the whole point of the second city is to allow ship access from the ocean our homeland is in to the seaways spotted south of this New World. Are we sure that we can't get around it easily to the West though? And why do we need to, when what we really need is new land for cities?

If we don;t go the canal route, I would build where the settler is now (still gets a few shielded grass to itself, and otherwise it would just steal one of the fish from Caralis, which has very little good land for some time apart from those fish), and move the southern canal city one West to the unshielded grass. There's still some overlap there, but not too much. Moreover, I would build another city on the tundra slightly further east as well - that tile would then be as good as any other underneath the city, and wouldn't be a limiting factor in the city's productivity in the future.

Generally though this sort of placement looks good to me. In Civ3 we often use 'camp cities' that build basically only cheap military or (settlers) for improving terrain. When they have served their purpose and the other cities are growing, they disband to make room.

Would that be OK, or too ICS for people?

	09-06-2004 19:47									#18
	Inflate your Upload Space

Blackclicking reveals the peninsula we are on continues for another eight clicks. Having a westward pointing canal, in addition to the N-S one will be useful, making a much shorter trip possible.

All the cities in the colony do not need to be able to grow to size 20. Time is running down and we don't have the coin to buy all the white goods that would entail.

Monk

	10-06-2004 00:14									#19
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MWIA - The proposal calls for 2 complete canals through the land. 1 goes from Utica (requires 1 more city) and the other goes between Caralis and Malaca (requires 2 new cities). I'm questioning the need to build both of them.

	10-06-2004 00:17									#20
	Put an end to popups!

My suggestion is that we build the one canal through Utica and use the 2 Whale, 1 Wine spot for a productive city and grow it fast(for trade, for Xinning, etc). Meanwhile, explore for other such good sites.

	10-06-2004 03:48									#21
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear My suggestion is that we build the one canal through Utica and use the 2 Whale, 1 Wine spot for a productive city and grow it fast(for trade, for Xinning, etc). Meanwhile, explore for other such good sites.

For trade?? For TRADE??

Here I thought we were hiding out on a landmass with two powerful civs who could, at any moment, discover our presence and drive us back into the sea. Here I thought our best hope was to try something radical, something new, a tight ball of cities with short lines of communication. Silly me.

I hope you are right. May our luck be boundless.

Monk (wonders if this is what Cassandra felt like)

	10-06-2004 18:44									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

You wanted to send Caravans to other Civs for gold and beakers. :gold: That's what I plan to do. I didn't mean trade among ourselves. I don't understand your alarm.

	10-06-2004 21:11									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by cavebear I don't understand your alarm.

Yea, I get that. You do not understand. We have a marginal beachhead on a landmass that is the home of two AI, that when they find us, will try to drive us back into the sea; and you don't seem to be concerned with our securing the beachhead, being more interested in Perfectionist considerations.

There is no comparison between the desirability of trade from Apolytonia with its 52 trade arrows and trade from a colony city of limited size. It is unlikely that we will ever have the luxury of normal trade for the rest of this game. Only coastal cities where the camel doesn't have to stay on land overnight are trade options; and even that will be unlikely if we are at war with everyone because of injudicious contact. These guys may well have battleships patrolling their coasts by now and our dinky little boats won't stand a chance.

This game will require us ALL to be particularly creative, think outside the box, plateheads. Or so I think.

Or, perhaps it is I who does not understand. In which case, please disregard the voice crying out from the wilderness.

Monk

	11-06-2004 02:01									#24
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Well, I agree. As a general rule, I would not ICS either. I just don't see any other way to, in the time remaining, get the critical mass to compete in THIS game. Perhaps you could give an outline of another path. My vision has become too myopic, I fear.

Yeah, we got to get some cities down before the AI crushes us, if for nothing else other than the fact that the AI takes one of our cities, and we can steal techs from that city.

That's the only hope I see right now, should the AI come a'knockin'. This way we can jump all the way to Rifles, which are most needed for defense.

	11-06-2004 02:28									#25
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Ben,

Check out the third topped thread...Game Settings.

We are not allowed to make Diplomats. Our only hope in this vein is to take an AI city from a civ that has Espionage. We can then build Spies.

To be completely accurate, we may get Espionage (or anything else) by way of a gift from some AI, for example, after an alliance. But I don't hold much hope for that.

Monk

	11-06-2004 03:27									#26
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That throws off that tactic.

	11-06-2004 03:38									#27
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OK, the only plan I saw involvng overlapping cities was for 2 separate canal systems. So I wasn't aware you wanted "tight-packed cities" for other reasons. Hence, my confusion.

We had discussed ocassional overlapping cities to share Specials, and I am quite happy with that. There is no reason not the build 2 more cities overlapping the one I suggested so they can share use of a Whale and the Wine. I even agree that such proximity could help them defend each other (though we have already agreed an attacked city is probably a dead city).

So, let's think one canal sysytem through Utica, one city placed among the 3 Specials, and two more cities close to that overlapping some Specials. Then we can see if there is another similar spot west of there. We can also string new cities among Caralis, Malaca, and Utica.

Meanwhile Apolytonia keeps turning out Settlers and Caravans destined for large cities of the other civs (assuming our ships aren't routinely sunk by annoyed enemy Destroyers).

Sound good? Does that balance out conflicting strategies?

[edited to correct "ships are routinely" to "ships aren't routinely"]

Last edited by cavebear on 11-06-2004 at 04:36

	11-06-2004 20:49									#28
	Why Build Overlapping Cities?? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Never Underestimate the Benifits from Shorter Lines of Communication

We are way behind but scrambling to make some impact in this game. We don't have the luxury of time to build fully developed cities. Until we can get Fundy or Commie Gov't, our cities will not grow much. This is because we simply will not have the cash or the time to slow build the white goods (Colosseum, Cathedral, Harbor, Markets, Aquaduct) that will permit such growth. Therefore, we must build overlapping cities planning for size 5, eventually 8, that can contribute 5+ shields each.

This will accomplish several things for us. By having more closely spaced cities, we will get additional arrows from more city squares; we will need fewer roads to connect them; we can utilize more of the available tiles; but, most importantly, once the roads are in, internal lines of communication will be very efficient. If we have the time to bring this together--meaning, we aren't discovered by the neighbors--we will be able to field a hoard of attackers that can go to work.

Eventually, the core cities and connecting roads will be in place. A source of additional shields (and arrows??) then can be brought forth by mining the grass of two hidden specials.

Monk

	11-06-2004 21:25									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Here is a new picture based on the current situation. Proposed city sites are in blue. The hidden specials are in red.

Monk

Attachment: '53b1-800.jpg
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	12-06-2004 01:34									#30
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Here is an alternative map with two (purple) options for those two cities between Car and Mal.

Monk

Attachment: '53b2-800.jpg
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