08-06-2004 22:57									#31
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... and the military advisor for his orders...
But it stays a fact, in a fight the attacked one will rarely now for sure if the opposition didn't use a standard alphax.txt file.

	08-06-2004 23:01									#32
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True, and this is what makes this discussion futile. Why so much fuss about it? Can`t we make sure that all will abide rules? This is not a fight to death, this is a game. It is not important to win, but to have fun.

PS Typo`s Geo

	08-06-2004 23:14									#33
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Off topic: Multiple ones? I only see one.

On topic: I saw to many flames in present ACDG about abiding to the rules. The more watertight things can be made, the better I feel.

	08-06-2004 23:26									#34
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu However I do believe that Chaunk is right, if somebody wants to change his vote, he could state so here. There hasn't been many who voted before the options were made clearer I believe, and I do not think many would want to change.

There are many people who probably only check once in a while, so they won't know about the change of vote options made in the meanwhile. And probably there are also many people who only read the poll options and quickly browse over the first post. Those won't be aware of the real situation, and will still believe the misinformation that everyone would supposedly have to make changes.

	08-06-2004 23:30									#35
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Only Chaunk, Geo, you and me voted at the time of the change. So it should be ok. But you are right if the poll options are edited (as I asked before) that would be preferable.

Googlie, can you edit poll options for us?

	08-06-2004 23:42									#36
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How about also resetting all votes to zero?

As alphax.txt changes would only have effect on turnplayers, that way only people who check this thread more than once (in other words: the more active participants who would be most likely to become turnplayer at some time in the future) will have a vote on this issue.

Edit: Btw, I think Tassadar is the only one who can see and change poll options, edit posts etc, not Googlie.

Last edited by Maniac on 08-06-2004 at 23:57

	09-06-2004 00:01									#37
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/pooh accent
Oh bother ...
/pooh accent

I hate to suggest that perhaps we should restart the poll ... It's perhaps more clear than resetting th votes to zero here. It's already confusing enough ...

Though I still think that third option means most of the people (instead of a few people) will have to do something in the future ...

	09-06-2004 00:53									#38
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Why do you think that?

	09-06-2004 01:30									#39
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Come on, its decided. No special alpha.txt. Now let's PLAY!!!!!!



-Jam

	09-06-2004 02:29									#40
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I disagree. We need to restart the poll with all options now clearly explained. I voted for second options but I am willing to change alphax.txt. Changes to the alphax should made ONLY THE TURNPLAYER. But no one uderstood that.

	09-06-2004 02:52									#41
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But see anyone can become the turn player.

	09-06-2004 04:30									#42
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And don't forget the many aides later in the game are necessary for the turnplayer. Those need a correct access to the turn as well...

	09-06-2004 04:56									#43
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I won't be changing my vote either.

The donkey dead drop - rearrange

-Jam

	09-06-2004 04:56									#44
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu But see anyone can become the turn player.

Yes there will most likely be several turnplayers per faction over the course of the entire game. But (unless a faction is cheating and several people are playing the same turn) there will only be one turnplayer for every year. So only one person will have to bother with alphax.txt swapping per turn, while all the others can view the turn without any trouble.

quote: Originally posted by GeoModder And don't forget the many aides later in the game are necessary for the turnplayer. Those need a correct access to the turn as well...

I don't see why. Only the turnplayer is allowed to move military units. All the other aides only need to see the turn to make theoretical plans and orders (Eg "Move that chopper to coordinates 54.68") without actually moving the military units. Them moving units would be "playing ahead" and thus cheating after all.
Of course military planners would have to keep in mind that choppers will for the turnplayer have 2 movement points less than their game indicates, but does that minor hassle really weigh against the advantage that hopefully the game won't be decided the turn someone researches MMI?

	09-06-2004 05:20									#45
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My earlier proposal can always be implemented. Create a number of limited range choppers in the #UNITS list. And just assume that because Fusion Reactor is not invented yet, that only a limited amount of weapons/abilities are possible. Missile and perhaps Chaos weapon, Tactical, Empath, Nerve Gas and no ability. 8 extra units in that list, that's all. And in case Chaos Choppers on the Chaos Theory tech is too soon, move that unit then to Monopole Magnets. By the time Fusion Power is invented AAA is also discovered and the normal choppers can be build again since that ability is a good counter.
The only thing that needs to be checked then is that other teams are not building the normal choppers as long as they fly on fission power.

	09-06-2004 07:17									#46
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I voted for no changes. I'm not convinced that text or other coding are needed. Instead we can ignore the feature, or agree to use it according to common rules. Is that so hard?

Example: EG overpowered - all players agree not to build it.
Example: choppers overpowered - ban choppers (why bother to reduce movement? seems silly - just get rid of them)

Hydro

	09-06-2004 08:17									#47
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CMN only changes

	09-06-2004 12:54									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Hydro Instead we can ignore the feature, or agree to use it according to common rules. Is that so hard?

I think it it is. I'm not saying that anyone will intentionally abuse the privilege, just that mistakes WILL happen. And when someone has moved too far with a Chopper, you can't take the knowledge back.

quote: Example: choppers overpowered - ban choppers (why bother to reduce movement? seems silly - just get rid of them)

Sounds fine to me, but I strongly doubt others (such as Jamski perhaps) would agree on this.

Since I haven't got my wish of a game vs the AI, I want a game where SMAX can play out fully, rather than have a certain critical point halfway through the techtree, with huge numbers of options unexplored where there is a killer tech/SP/unit that can then, if properly utilised, spell the end of the game. I want a game that will not end in a rush to Choppers, or a who-has-the-most-Choppers-the-fastest wins ending. That royally sucked in the current game, and is strongly anti-competitive. First there has just about won already.

	09-06-2004 15:20									#49
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That is SMAX though. Its about rushing to choppers.

I'd accept a house rule that all choppers must have SAM. That would half their effectiveness as base-clearers and not require any modding. We could lift that ban with Fusion.

-Jam

	09-06-2004 15:28									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski That is SMAX though. Its about rushing to choppers. -Jam

Reading this line, I say we ban the choppers!

	09-06-2004 15:31									#51
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It's simplier as you propose, Jam. A way to circumvent that partly is off course putting nerve gas on them.

But what you propose can easily be complemented by creating 'slow' choppers as well in the #UNITS list. It limits the number of extra units to be put in that list then...

	09-06-2004 15:33									#52
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Why do you have to edit the #units list? Simply make all choppers with the SAM ability in the unit workshop. Let the AI build normal ones. I like the fact that adding SAM means you can't put Clean and Gas on as well

-Jam

	09-06-2004 15:41									#53
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Neural Grafting?
And that way for a while you can make even slower choppers, making them only usable for strictly base air defense.

It gives any faction a reasonable time to discover the AAA ability, and arm themselves with it. That's the main reason I propose this.

	09-06-2004 16:52									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Jamski Why do you have to edit the #units list? Simply make all choppers with the SAM ability in the unit workshop. Let the AI build normal ones. I like the fact that adding SAM means you can't put Clean and Gas on as well -Jam

So what about the loophole of bribing AI Choppers to get around this restriction? The decision was made in a poll, let's just implement it and get on with it.

quote: That is SMAX though. Its about rushing to choppers.

And it is exactly this that we are trying to avoid!

	09-06-2004 17:35									#55
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt So what about the loophole of bribing AI Choppers to get around this restriction?

That is a sound tactic IMHO!
Besides, it's hardly expectable (if this ACDG is a good example) that the AI will have choppers before the teams reach fusion power.

	09-06-2004 17:36									#56
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quote: Neural Grafting?

Still only allows two specials.

So you can't have Gas and Clean with SAM. That would be 3 specials.

quote: So what about the loophole of bribing AI Choppers to get around this restriction? The decision was made in a poll, let's just implement it and get on with it.

Pretty hard to imagine the AI will have choppers before the humans get past the restrictions... plus who has SAM probe teams?

-Jam

	09-06-2004 19:42									#57
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I say we first decide whether we go the CMN change route, then we decide whether we let the CMN edit the unit list or just make restrictions like choppers must have sams.

	09-06-2004 19:58									#58
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So if people get wet feet and vote for the lazy option that automatically and INDIRECTLY invalidates the confirmed result of an uncontested previous poll where it was decided to drop Chopper move points and move the CBA pre-req? No f***ing way.

The fact is that this current poll is a bit strange, and as the vote currently is clashes with previous decisions. Does this mean that there is no longer support for the change of CBA pre-req and Chopper move points? If so let's poll on that again - if the result is different from before then we needn't even be having this poll, and can go ahead without any text file changes. Further, if it is clear that the mood has changed then I withdraw my objection, as the democratic voice will have spoken. If the repoll result is the same, then it basically follows that some modding will need to be done by turnplayers. If that is the case then those who don't like the idea of messing with text files must just get over it.

	09-06-2004 20:03									#59
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There was a poll with the same result as this one before. And this poll is created exactly because later there were polls that produced contradictory results. The purpose of this poll is to clearify what exactly do people want.

If you feel like to redo the chopper poll, please go ahead and do it. I suggest you post your options here for discussion like I did for this one before you post the poll.

	09-06-2004 20:12									#60
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu There was a poll with the same result as this one before.

There was?

Anyway, I suggest we just go with Jamski's suggestion of a houserule: "All choppers need to have SAM before you research Fusion Power." That way the wishes of those wanting to reduce chopper power and those not wanting to use modified alphax.txt are both followed.