09-06-2004 05:19									#31
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I have no problem with it taking a while, thats not my job. I agree with Togas that this plan is the best military we can have in a reasonable amount of time.

Also, I think it prepares us for the aftermath, when PAL attacks us.

	09-06-2004 06:37									#32
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Turn Year
49 1830 Current year
50 1790 hyapos builds warrior #7, city #4 founded
51 1750 ap builds hoplite #1, Roads start roading to iron colony
52 1725
53 1700
54 1675 hyapos builds hoplite #2
55 1650
56 1625 ap builds settler #5, hypnos builds worker #3
57 1600 ph builds barracks
58 1575
59 1550
60 1525 ap builds hoplite #3
61 1500 hypnos builds archer #2, ph builds archer #3
62 1475
63 1450 city #5 founded (ivory site), hypnos builds warrior #8
64 1425 ap builds settler #6 (horse), ph builds worker #4
65 1400
66 1375
67 1350 city #4 builds barracks, hypnos builds archer #5
68 1325 city #6 founded (horse site), city #5 builds cat #1
69 1300 roads completes road to horses, continues to iron
70 1275 ph builds archer #6
71 1250
72 1225 city #5 builds worker #5
73 1200 Hypnos builds horse #1 (slave catcher)
74 1175 ap builds barracks, city #4 builds hoplite #4
75 1150 ph builds currach #2, hypnos builds worker #6
76 1125 city #5 builds cat #2
77 1100 ap bulids worker #7
78 1075 city #4 builds archer #7
79 1050 ph builds hoplite #5
80 1025 hypnos builds horse #2
81 1000
82 975 ap builds settler #7, roads builds colony on iron
83 950 city #5 builds grainary
84 925 ph builds sword #1
85 900 hypnos builds sword #2
86 875 city #4 builds sword #3
87 850 city #5 builds settler #8
88 825 ph builds sword #4
89 800 ap builds sword #5
90 775 hypnos builds sword #6

Force total: Workers 6
Warriors 8
Hoplites 5
Archers 7
Swords 6
Horses 2
Currachs 2
Catapults 2
cities (settlers) 7

	09-06-2004 06:49									#33
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Assumptions -
no losses due to barbs
no upgrading of units
no lost production due to revolution

I did the above by approximations. Not as a sim. I did not calculate exact corruption. I did not calculate exact growth rates. I did account for these factors, but mostly by (educated) guess work. Therefore, please take the above with a grain of salt, and understand that it is an APPROXIMATION only.

By going for the iron, we will be stretching ourselves out. Also, please note, there is only ONE city improvement durring the entire rest of this REX phase - one grainary in the ivory site (other than barracks).

Also, I did not optimize some of the ordering of construction. For example, you might see a barracks build followed by a settler.

	10-06-2004 13:28									#34
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Thank you very much GK. I admire you builders and your ability to plan more than 4 turns in advance. I am hopelessly lost when it comes to that mystical 5th turn. I hope you can be at the PAL chat tonight, but if you can't I will be using your outline in my discussions.

So, we're looking at ~40 turns until our SoD is ready. Thats close enough to what PAL estimate themselves at as well, but their force will be mostly horse, and will get there sooner if we leave at the same time.

If for some reason PAL whines about it being too long and questions why it's taking that long, I'm going to be honest and say we got kind of screwed with resources. We have both of them, but in extremely bad city sites. I won't mention the colony plan or anything about how we will be dealing with the issue, just state that there is an issue, should he ask why.

I believe we should guide them into Minnesota, and hope CDG has some decent defense there. I want to see as many of PAL's units die as possible. Yes, I'm a horrible ally, but I'm thinking survival here. If the fit hits the shan, I want to be better off.

The problem with that is it may eventually lead to a "who gets what" discussion, and I'd rather not have it. I'd rather grab as much as we can before PAL knows whats going on.

	10-06-2004 16:33									#35
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: I believe we should guide them into Minnesota, and hope CDG has some decent defense there. I want to see as many of PAL's units die as possible. Yes, I'm a horrible ally, but I'm thinking survival here. If the fit hits the shan, I want to be better off. The problem with that is it may eventually lead to a "who gets what" discussion, and I'd rather not have it. I'd rather grab as much as we can before PAL knows whats going on.

Our one problem is a despotic GA. I would prefer to enter the war with slightly less unitsdue to a revolution, but the revolution should be fairly quick if we only have about 5-7 cities...

PAL are going to change govs, What is the point of a despotic GA fired with the pyramids?

	10-06-2004 21:16									#36
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I'd like to thank GK for giving us this estimate of what our forces could be at turn 90. We can also scroll back on it a bit and see what we'd have on turn 80 or 85, if needed, however, I do agree that 90 seems to be the best (and earliest) point for us to attack, unless we decided to do an archer rush.

After founding the Ivory city, I had originally wanted (and still do want) to build at site F, which is a far better production site, but GK's plan does time the horse-city build nicely with the road to horses, and I'm starting to think that we'd be foolish not to build a few horses. We need a few fast-movers for military purposes, and to help us should PAL decide to take advantage of our slow-moving SOD.

One thing I don't particularly like is the large number of archers. We really don't need more than 4. The other three should be converted to Hoplites, which are a much better value and will prove to be invaluable to the security of our nation. NOTE that many Hoplites will stay behind to guard our nation while the SOD moves forward, so if we had 8 Hops, we would have 1 at the colony site, 4 at home, and only be left with 3 in the SOD. 8 may not be enough. 5 definately isn't enough.

Also note that 2 cats are virtually worthless IMO. I like cats in groups of 4 or more. Less than 4 gives very little overall bonus to your assault. Can we find a way to squeeze out 2 more cats?

We can probably expect to upgrade 3 of the warriors to swords, if we drop our science accordingly before the attack. That should ultimately give us 9 swords, which will be sufficient in combination with the other forces to deliver a decisive killing blow to CDG.

--Togas

	09-07-2004 01:34									#37
	Increase Your PM Length

Time to bump this thread up again. Some thoughts...

What is our plan of attack? It appears we will have a sizeable force but what to do with them?

I suggest waiting for CDG to go into anarchy as they will likely go for Republic soon after they get it. Our forces should be in position to move in during this period. They would not be able to rush anything during this time and it would be a perfect time to launch an attack.

Of course that would mean we might get a despotic GA but we would be assured that no CDG troops could be rushed.

What would it take to get our forces assembled in time? Does this seem like a prudent plan?

	09-07-2004 01:51									#38
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quote: Originally posted by SirOsis Time to bump this thread up again. Some thoughts... What is our plan of attack? It appears we will have a sizeable force but what to do with them? I suggest waiting for CDG to go into anarchy as they will likely go for Republic soon after they get it. Our forces should be in position to move in during this period. They would not be able to rush anything during this time and it would be a perfect time to launch an attack. Of course that would mean we might get a despotic GA but we would be assured that no CDG troops could be rushed. What would it take to get our forces assembled in time? Does this seem like a prudent plan?

I thought we had a plan that was for after Republic? or was that after the tech, not after the government?

	09-07-2004 04:49									#39
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We'll have Philosophy in @11 turns. In theory, CDG will have Code of Laws before that time, send it to us, and we will receive Republic for free. It will then be sent to CDG.

CDG will likely have republic @Turn 70. At that time we will not have an iron colony in place, nor will we have sufficient military forces to attack. We will have 4-5 archers at that time.

I am unsure if CDG will immediately switch to Republic. Their desire to quickly aquire a new government leads me to believe that they will. However, they will be ill-equipped to deal with happiness and commerce issues should they switch. And they may have too many units costing too much upkeep.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've made the mistake of switching governments too early in many a civ game in the past. It chokes your research, military, productivity, etc. If they do switch at turn 70, I doubt it will be for the best, and if they switch 20 turns later, we can nail them quite easily.

I like the plan of attacking them while they're in anarchy. Hopefully we'll get that chance.

--Togas

	09-07-2004 05:12									#40
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What if they have a short period of anarchy? We may not even get the chance to attack them. The game I'm playing now, had two turns of anarchy for me.

	09-07-2004 05:58									#41
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They're not religious so it should last longer than 2 turns. Isn't it usually around 5-7 turns?

	09-07-2004 06:02									#42
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Religious is one turn. I was France, who is not religious.

	09-07-2004 13:45									#43
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quote: Originally posted by SirOsis They're not religious so it should last longer than 2 turns. Isn't it usually around 5-7 turns?

I'm pretty sure it's 2-8, weighted towards the middle.

	09-07-2004 21:09									#44
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Master Religious is one turn. I was France, who is not religious.

I thought this changed to 2 turns for religious civs in C3C. Is it 1 or 2?

	10-07-2004 10:22									#45
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no, religious still expirience only one turn of anarchy.

I guess the length of the anarchy period depends of the size of the civilization. If this is really so CDG will switch really fast to republic.

	10-07-2004 10:32									#46
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I thought it was completely random?