06-06-2004 00:46									#1
	Making Ancient Cavalry upgrade to Cavarly? Got spare money?

For those that have tried this modification:
How much was it unbalanced?
Or not?

Is 120gp upgrade per Ancient Cavalry as unbalanced as 30gp upgrade per Knight?
Or maybe as Horsemen to Knight upgrade (120gp)?

I would welocme any opinion on this matter.


P.S.
Just to be known, upgraded Ancient Cavalry loses hit point bonus.

	06-06-2004 02:11									#2
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I would think it should cost at least 100, if not more. In fact, since the unit did not cost any production time to get, make it 130 to go from AC to knight and then same as knights to become calvs.

It is one of the restraints on AC's value, that it cannot be upgraded and will soon not be worth keeping (rifles and calvs).

Humans are forced to build knights or calvs, where the mod would let then just upgrade. This lets those good cities build something else.

But then I never use mods of any kind, except one team AU game.

	07-06-2004 23:11									#3
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Well, if your going to allow Ancient Calvary upgrade into Calvary, you should also allow Crusaders to upgrade to Guerrlias.

That way there are two civs with major advantages instead of just one.

Also for balancing purposes, with such a mod, the offical price of these wonder produced units should probably be lowered to 0. (Or as close to 0 as the editor will allow.) This will maximize the cash needed to support these upgrades from free units.

	07-06-2004 23:44									#4
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AC and Crusaders should not be able to be upgraded IMO. They are powerful enough as is.

	08-06-2004 00:07									#5
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Nulling their cost would at least save them from the cruel fate of being disbanded for shields ...

	08-06-2004 00:21									#6
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Well, I regard Crusader as balanced, and would have no problem with it upgrading to Guerilla. Even 60gp cost needed is OK.

But, for consistance if one is allowed other one should be too.


The problem is that AC as it is, is overpowred.

So what if AC is slightly weaker, like same but with no +1HP.
Would then 120gp upgrade to Cavalry be balanced.

Anybody tested this?

	08-06-2004 17:29									#7
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In the AU Mod, the AC extra hit point has been removed as it has been considered overpowered.

	08-06-2004 18:33									#8
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I personally like it as is. Extra hp intact, but not upgradable.

	09-06-2004 00:31									#9
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If you can upgrade the AC, the cost of the wonder itself should be raised before the unit value lowered.

	09-06-2004 02:55									#10
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nO, they should not. These are special units you get from wonders. They have their time, and after that, they are rightly obselete. You build a rather cheap woder-stop looking gift horses in the mouth.

	09-06-2004 12:13									#11
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quote: Originally posted by GePap nO, they should not. These are special units you get from wonders. They have their time, and after that, they are rightly obselete. You build a rather cheap woder-stop looking gift horses in the mouth.

Of course they are obsolete.
As well as Horsemen and Knights.

That's why, if upgradeable, they would need money to gain the benefits (120gp no less).

	09-06-2004 12:17									#12
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Let's back to first post question.
For those what did tried it, was it unbalanced?


And an extra one for those that play unmoded:
How many AC you have left at the time wonder becomes obsolete?

Very importat issue, to see the benefits of possible upgrade.

	09-06-2004 20:14									#13
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I don’t know that I’ve counted. Off the top of my head, I would say I have in the vicinity of 15-18 left over. That would be a seriously over powered upgrade.

	09-06-2004 20:18									#14
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15*120gp=1800gp for 15 Cavalry, or 900gp with Leo.

I could see this as powerful, if combined with workshop.

	10-06-2004 02:44									#15
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quote: Originally posted by player1 Of course they are obsolete. As well as Horsemen and Knights. That's why, if upgradeable, they would need money to gain the benefits (120gp no less).

NO, you miss the point. These are special units you get from a wonder that are way overpowered for their age- they have their time, and once their time runs out, well, OK. Use them while you have them-once their period is done, well, it's done.

	10-06-2004 03:22									#16
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ACs are overpowered.

Crusaders clearly aren't.

	10-06-2004 04:00									#17
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Or maybe the problem is that Cavalry is maybe overpowered too?

	10-06-2004 04:39									#18
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I don't see an upgrade of AC to cavalry as overpowering at all. I usually have a cavalry force at or above 100 before tanks roll along; the upgrade of 15 Ancient Cavalry doesn't make much difference to me. However, I should note that I have the TOZ and Knights Templar as small wonders so the AI has the same oppportunity to upgrade its units as well.

As for crusaders, I use them more for defensive improvements than as a combat unit.

	10-06-2004 11:19									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist ACs are overpowered. Crusaders clearly aren't.

Clearly they aren't.

	10-06-2004 12:16									#20
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Also, the trick is that overpowrerness depdends from type of the map played.

At huge worlds hwne you have more then 100 Cavalries, 15 ACavs won't make a difference.

But at small map...

	10-06-2004 20:24									#21
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Map and level dependent, really. Many do not play levels where the AI gets tons of bonuses. So even on a large map, at Monarch level, that’s enough cavalry to gobble up three or four cities in a blitzkrieg. It’s enough units to repel any stack an AI marches in your territory with.

My opinion is taking an already overpowered – free - unit and upgrading them to 15-18 cavalry is fairly overpowered. Particularly since this is a "dumb luck" (resource dependent) wonder.

	10-06-2004 23:06									#22
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The one factor keeping AC from being vastly overpowered on a huge map is the difficulty of massing them, since only one city produces them (much bigger issue with crusaders, due to movement). Upgrading them wipes this out, since it lets them remain useful after the production/movement phase is finished.

	11-06-2004 01:52									#23
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quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal Map and level dependent, really. Many do not play levels where the AI gets tons of bonuses. So even on a large map, at Monarch level, that’s enough cavalry to gobble up three or four cities in a blitzkrieg. It’s enough units to repel any stack an AI marches in your territory with. My opinion is taking an already overpowered – free - unit and upgrading them to 15-18 cavalry is fairly overpowered. Particularly since this is a "dumb luck" (resource dependent) wonder.

Cavalry cost 70 shields so if you had 15 units of AC to upgrade it would cost you 1050 shields to produce these same units from scratch. It costs 1800 gold to upgrade them (900 gold with Leo's), add in the 50 shields that you could get from disbanding the AC's and at best you would have a 100 shield gain with upgrading. Without Leo's it would actually be more cost efficient to disband the AC's and build the Cavalry from scratch.

	11-06-2004 03:15									#24
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You guys miss the point of these units-they are not regular units-they are specialty units you get after creating a great wonder and only you have them. If they are not much of a big deal, why waste the shields building the wonders in the first place? Specially the Knights templar, if you guys really think they aren't powerful? JUst build X number of knights, which have movement 2 and get to retreat and can be upgraded cheap?

	11-06-2004 03:26									#25
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The question is not are they big deal.
That could be a separate discussion on itself.
(AC is obviously overpowred, while Crusader is no more powerful then an ok UUU)

The question is does upgrading them to normal (in no way special) modern unit is a big deal.


The thing are really hate, when I have in modern times bunch or old Cruisers garrisoned in cities and I have no heart to disband them. Just feels bad.

	11-06-2004 04:35									#26
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I only have a few (if any) left by the time I go into the modern age. They have all kinds of uses: pillaging, counterattacking, stealing workers, sentrys, disbanding for shields, and I'm sure there's a use or two I'm forgetting.

No need for an upgrade on these bad boys. They were specifically designed to NOT upgrade. That wasn't an oversight.

	11-06-2004 04:50									#27
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quote: Originally posted by GePap You guys miss the point of these units-they are not regular units-they are specialty units you get after creating a great wonder and only you have them. If they are not much of a big deal, why waste the shields building the wonders in the first place? Specially the Knights templar, if you guys really think they aren't powerful? JUst build X number of knights, which have movement 2 and get to retreat and can be upgraded cheap?

The question isn't wether the initial units that the wonder provides are a benefit, but wether UPGRADING the units provide a benefit. Considering that units have upkeep, the main decision once one gets Military Tradition and Replaceable parts is wether to keep the units or be replaced by modern units. Since it costs nearly as much to upgrade than to replace the unit, the overall benefit is minimal at best.

	11-06-2004 05:42									#28
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yeah, I know I could get some use of obsolete Crusaders.
It just feels bad flavorwise to have them do battle alongside Guerilla.

	11-06-2004 18:57									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Mad Bomber The question isn't wether the initial units that the wonder provides are a benefit, but wether UPGRADING the units provide a benefit. Considering that units have upkeep, the main decision once one gets Military Tradition and Replaceable parts is wether to keep the units or be replaced by modern units. Since it costs nearly as much to upgrade than to replace the unit, the overall benefit is minimal at best.

No, the question is whether they should be upgradable-that is a slightly distinct issue than whether it is cost effective to do so.

And I say they should not be upgradeable, since that is not the point of these special units.

	11-06-2004 21:33									#30
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On the other hand, it's not flavourwise to be able to upgarde your Med. Infantry to Guerilla and leave Crusaders forever.