12-06-2004 19:12									#31
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As far as I know, dissociative wave works ONLY on offense (though it's allowed on noncombat units for some reason). It fizzles all defensive special abilities that add to the defender's combat rating, including AAA. I don't know if a wave psi unit would cancel trance, but it should.

Your empath psi chopper is not possible because units with psi offense cannot have empath and units with psi defense cannot have trance. A psi soporific gas wave chopper could be viable, though, since morale is so important in psi combat.

	13-06-2004 11:35									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Qwerty88 Airospace Complexes don't defend against all air attack, the best thing is Dream Twister and Neural Amplifier with plenty of lifecycle boosting Secret Projects and facilities to build killer Locus and Sea Lurks, bypassing deffencess and quickly killing your enemies with a sweeping wave of psi units, also maximising your planet score helps for the attack boast.

Before I got SMAX I loved Dream Twister above almost everything else.

It was awesome combining worms (and to a lessor extent locust) with DT and NA for defense.

Since I got SMAX I find that dominace is so firmly reached, with in part CBA, by the time DT becomes available that the game is over by then.


Mead

	13-06-2004 21:52									#33
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Sorry, back on topic (roughly):

quote: Originally posted by Santiago_Clause There is a reason not to colocate them: a base's research contribution is truncated when a discovery is made. If you want to "tech sprint" by cranking up your science allocation you're much better off splitting SC and ToE and bringing their research output up evenly. If all you really want is 1 tech per turn then colocate SC and ToE, set your labs allocation to whatever puts you just past your tech cost, and pocket the rest as ec's.

Contrary to all other lab-enhancing facilities, SC and ToE multiply and don't add. So, having both in one base with lab output x without them, gives you additional 3x lab. Having them in separate bases, you get only 2x additional lab. And you must build twice the facilities, terrain enhancements and crawlers. I'd guess this outweighs the truncation effect by far.

	13-06-2004 23:33									#34
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All normal facilities add their effects. The Supercollider and ToE are special in that they multiply lab output after the effect of normal facilities. If you have two equivalent bases, it makes no difference whether one has both the SC and ToE, or whether each has one, except for lab point truncation. Building all the lab enhancing normal facilities is not that big a chore, especially for just two bases: network node, research hospital, fusion lab, nanohospital, quantum lab.

On the other hand, having two equivalent bases, both of which produce a large number of lab points, is not simple and it may be easier to just have one with twice the lab points, build both the SC and ToE there, and not worry about not being able to research more than 1 tech/turn. The game is pretty much decided if you can do that and no one attacks you for it.

	14-06-2004 01:34									#35
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Think about two bases, equal facilities, lab output x.

Both SPs in base 1, gives four times the output:
4x from base 1
x from base 2
Nets you 5x lab points


Each base has one SP:
2x from base 1
2x from base 2
gives 4x lab points

Next thing: It is true that eventually each major base will have all lab facilities. But it's different with crawlers.

Assume build 50 crawlers and get 6 ec from each, 50% lab allocation, no inefficiency, no lab enhancement effects. This gives 150 lab each turn. In the first case, assign them to base 1, and get 600, in the second case it doesn't matter where you assign them to, you'll get 300.
So, truncation gives a disadvantage only if you get more than two techs per turn, which should be a point only if the game is decided.

	14-06-2004 01:48									#36
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Correction:
Both SPs in base 1, gives three times the output:
3x from base 1
x from base 2
nets 4x lab points (twice the unmodified value of 2x)

Each base has one:
2x from base 1
2x from base 2
nets 4x lab points again

If you aren't convinced the ToE and SC add, try it out yourself with the scenario editor.

Crawler count shouldn't be the limiting factor for crawled energy - suitable land should be. But this effect does make having 1 SSC more desirable, unless you are losing lab points from truncation.

	14-06-2004 03:02									#37
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In the last game I played I hit 1 tech per turn before researching the tech for Theory of Everything, so I was already in a situation of diminishing returns for the main SSC.

But yes, you guys are essentially correct, having 1 SSC is better up until truncation becomes an issue. It's a judgment call whether to build 1 SSC or 2.

	15-06-2004 23:18									#38
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I don't think I've ever reached 1 tech/turn in SMAC. I've never wanted to, since I hate having to mess with unit designs that frequently.

Last edited by Straybow on 15-06-2004 at 23:33

	16-06-2004 00:09									#39
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The problems with all your examples is that you say 2x from base A amd 2x from base B as if x WERE THE SAME.

The variable "x" makes no sense as you have used it, unless base A and base B have IDENTICAL raw energy coming in, and ALWAYS WOULD

The beauty of coupling the TOE and Supercollider is the multiplicative effects for each and every new source of energy. Placing them together, quite simply adds more labs than placing them apart. Assume each setup gets a new crawler immediately capable of crawling 5 energy. Is there anyone that would dispute that a base with both the TOE and Supercollider won't produce more labs???


Oh and I totally agree that you can hit the wall once your SSC alone can produce a tech a turn.This limit is one big reason to separate them if you are raking in massive amounts of energy

	16-06-2004 01:10									#40
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I was using x for both bases with the assumption that their raw energy outputs are similar, and don't diverge over time, which should be the case if you have two super-science cities.

	16-06-2004 02:32									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory I was using x for both bases with the assumption that their raw energy outputs are similar, and don't diverge over time, which should be the case if you have two super-science cities.

You can set them up that way I guess .. .


BUT one SSC will skunk two on raw output of labs EVERY time. The one city model can have all its crawlers and trawlers focused on bringing in more and more energy to that one city. To even be competitive at all on the two city model you would need twice as many crawlers and trawlers and twice as much crawlable land to keep the energy inputs the same.


There are downsides to the one city model, including the PB risk and needing to monitor tech discovery loss issues. I usually find that each problem is manageable.

	16-06-2004 02:46									#42
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I fully agree that having one SSC allows you to get more benefit from crawlers, but some posters believed that the SSC and ToE multiplied, exaggerating their combined benefit

	16-06-2004 04:55									#43
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I'll stick my neck out on this one. It's my impression that having both projects in one city is more than additive and less than multiplicative. Saying labs multiply is not specific enough. The doubling factor multiplies, not the labs themselves. For example:

Raw Energy : 100
Labs Energy: 50
Double Labs Energy: 100
Double Research: 200

This is oversimplified b/c other facilities. trade income, and efficiency change the initial numbers around. But the the 'Double the Double amount' = 4 is my impression, even if I've never actually added them up (will do this game).

-Smack

	16-06-2004 09:45									#44
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I don't know exactly what all you people have said, and I don't feel like reading this whole thread (even though I started it) so let me just say this...

Why build the two projects in different bases? YOu build the bases in the same base, the base that has the most energy towards labs. YOu get the most benefit.

ONly one base has the most energy, and if there is a tie, only one base has the most minerals to build the project, and if that is a tie, then build them in the base that has the most potential. Maybe I'm wrong, but don't you build the Supercollider and ToE in the base with the Merchant Exchange? And can't you only build one Merchant Exchange? And wouldn't you be intelligent enough to build the ME in a base that already produces the most energy? So then why build them in separate bases?

For those of you who already said this, sorry, it's just that I'm not in a good mood right now because I have over 600 e-mails (mind you, I am not exagerating, I swear) from this forum saying that someone has posted after me, so as you can see, apolyton is not on my good list...

	16-06-2004 09:58									#45
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Reasons to spread out your Secret Projects:

1. Enemy attacks. A single base is a juicy target, even for the AI. Two bases requires a bit more strategy.

2. Planetbuster

3. Perhaps you need to relocate your HQ. Perhaps to the newly captured Merchant Exchange Base.

-Smack

	16-06-2004 17:21									#46
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Often you lose some of the early game projects. I often pick the ME to lose, rather than immediately useful projects such as the WP, VW, or PTS. In that event, you need to set up a SSC in a fairly undistinguished city.

Regarding the cumulative effect of the SC and the ToE yet again:
x = lab output of a particular base, without the SC or ToE
2x = its lab output with either the SC or ToE
3x = its lab output with both the SC or ToE
End of story.

	16-06-2004 21:56									#47
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Commy:

When a base discovers a tech, research resets to a new tech at 0 accumulated rp's at the next base. The "leftover" lab output at the first base is wasted.

	16-06-2004 23:37									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Santiago_Clause Commy: When a base discovers a tech, research resets to a new tech at 0 accumulated rp's at the next base. The "leftover" lab output at the first base is wasted.

Which is why you put your SSC in one of your oldest bases (most people put it in their HQ to minimize efficiency losses) and set you labs low enough to "just " discover a prior tech. If your SSC can produce more labs by itself than your complete tech cost, :

1. reallocate some crawlers/trawlers to another base
2. Lower your labs and use the additional cash to build weapons or infrastructure.
3. Lower your research rating in favor of something else
4.The game is probably overwhelmingly won anyway

	17-06-2004 05:10									#49
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I still don't see why to build them in two different bases. Not that I ever build them anyway, playing as Morgan, but let's think about it. THere is no need to worry about planet busters if you have flechettes, and ODPs. Also, if the base is well in my empire, just take out all the garrison units. Then the base can't be planet busted, problem solved. Just have to hope those mindworms don't screw you.

	17-06-2004 05:31									#50
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The point is that if your base produces 100,000 labs per turn, and your tech cost is 45,000 labs, you're wasting the other 55,000 labs you're generating.

	17-06-2004 06:06									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Commy THere is no need to worry about planet busters if you have flechettes, and ODPs.

I can agree with this unless your opponent has enough ODPs to take out yours-- In a game I am playing my 17 ODPs just took out my opponents 7 as a precursor to a PB drop. The flechette may be effective but again there is a percetage chance it will get through

quote: Originally posted by Commy Also, if the base is well in my empire, just take out all the garrison units. Then the base can't be planet busted, problem solved. Just have to hope those mindworms don't screw you.

Not only do you have to empty the base but every tile within 4 tiles, otherwise you can get caught at the edge of the explosion and vaporized as well

	17-06-2004 06:07									#52
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quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron The point is that if your base produces 100,000 labs per turn, and your tech cost is 45,000 labs, you're wasting the other 55,000 labs you're generating.

Exactly right but you can ameliorate the problem by rehoming a couple of hundred crawlers

	17-06-2004 06:31									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Commy I still don't see why to build them in two different bases. Not that I ever build them anyway, playing as Morgan, but let's think about it.

Huh? You only play to make ECs? I dun get it.

Commy, one certainly doesn't always need to build them in separate bases. Nor is the opposite true. There will be times when it's best to build them in different bases. That's the point I'm making. Not that one should always do one or the other. And if you are going to play a perfect game and have all the EC/SP projects in a single base and have no threats against that base, then there really isn't a point, is there? It is the threats that should give one pause.

-Smack

	17-06-2004 08:36									#54
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First, before you go on about lab points being wasted, remember that I am not as experienced as you, and I certainly am never going to be getting a tech every turn.

Also, I rarely build SPs, not because I don't want to, but because I forget and am too lazy. Once I get bio-engineering, I just keep cranking out clean garrisons and interceptors for defense. I kind of forget about building SPs. On a normal game, I may only build the Merchant Exchange and Telepathic Matrix. I remember the ME because it is very early on, and as for the Telepathic Matrix, well when I switch to Eudaimonia, I realize it's time to build a project.

So anyway, with that in mind, I don't see any reason to build the projects, specifically the supercollider and ToE, in separate bases. The last time I ever lost a base, even when playing on Transcend, which is quite often, was a couple of months ago when I was playing as the gaians and got stuck between the progenitors on a tiny, tiny island and literally got caught in an alien crossfire. And the last time I got successfully Planet Busted was before I last lost a base, way back before I got crossfire.

I simply go for the best benefit, so, if I actually were to build the two projects, I don't see why not to build them in the same base.