06-06-2004 02:46									#1
	Difference between supercollider and theory of everything SPs Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I was just wondering, what is the difference between the Supercollider and the Theory of Everthing secret projects? Because the Theory of Everything is more expensive, but according to the datalinks, it appears to have the same advantage, double lab output. However, for some reason, I remember the datalinks not saying the exact same thing about the projects, like one doubles research and the other lab output, or something like that. Does one apply to your whole empire and another to only the base its built in? Just wondering...

	06-06-2004 04:38									#2
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IIRC they have both the same effect. One costs more, that is all. Of course, you build them both in the same base, right?

-Jam

	06-06-2004 05:43									#3
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So, if they are the same, then why is one more expensive?

	06-06-2004 05:46									#4
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ToE is eight techs ahead of the Supercollider: Doctrine: Mobility, Doctrine: Loyalty, Ethical Calculus, Intellectual Integrity, Cyberethics, Nonlinear Math, Superstring Theory, Monopole Magnets. This is assuming you went for IA before Supercollider.

	06-06-2004 08:00									#5
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Minor difference is:

Supercollider doubles research output, which is post any efficiency penalties

ToE doubles raw lab output, which is pre-efficiency penalties

(That's why it pays to put them in your HQ base, which is immune to inefficiency)

	06-06-2004 08:15									#6
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Thanks, Googlie, that makes sense. That was really bugging me...

	06-06-2004 22:07									#7
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Still seems a rather unoriginal of Firaxis to have 2 projects do basicaly the same thing, most likly a hold over from Civ 2 inwhich their were 2 Projects that basicaly that, Civ 3 is the same as well.

	06-06-2004 22:53									#8
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I guess part of it may have been an attempt to give another faction a chance to catch up.

Some SPs are so powerful that I don't even allow them in games anymore - Cloudbase Academy is one.

	07-06-2004 11:01									#9
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There is a reason not to colocate them: a base's research contribution is truncated when a discovery is made.

If you want to "tech sprint" by cranking up your science allocation you're much better off splitting SC and ToE and bringing their research output up evenly.

If all you really want is 1 tech per turn then colocate SC and ToE, set your labs allocation to whatever puts you just past your tech cost, and pocket the rest as ec's.

	08-06-2004 01:38									#10
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How is cloudbase academy so powerful? I mean come on, what happened to the Telepathic Matrix? I can play with a free market and still lead military campaigns without having to worry about drones. Who cares about morale and aerospace complexes, when I have 20 10-6-3*2s coming at you it doesn't matter, because I still get the +2 economy...

	08-06-2004 01:53									#11
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Well, the Telepathic Matrix comes with Eudaimonia, which lets you get +2 econ without a low police rating anyway...
Besides that, by the time you can build the Telepathic Matrix, the game is nearly over. The CBA comes at a time when the game is not yet decided.

	08-06-2004 03:30									#12
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Yeah, last transcended game I played I used the TM as a jumpplank to the AoT. Just switched it when my last tech was discovered.

	08-06-2004 03:36									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Commy How is cloudbase academy so powerful? I mean come on, what happened to the Telepathic Matrix? .

Its the combination that comes with the CBA .. . most people get it because they get to MMI first and then build the CBA and CF. The result is higher morale choppers which usually gives you a chance to go killing your opponents. Combine the choppers with your drop ability and wow-- quite an impact

While I agree that the CBA is very powerful, I think that some people overestimate its powers and attribute other things happening at the time ( getting choppers and droppers) to the CBA.


The Telepathic Matrix is a great project but I am now in probably only the second or third of my PBEMs where it got built. Its nice as it allowed me to sell off all my punishment spheres, rec commons and holotheatres but drone control was pretty easy at this stage anyway

	08-06-2004 03:49									#14
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Aerospace complex in every base means :

All air units get +2 Morale.

All air units heal instantly at home.

All bases can build orbital improvements

All bases can get full benefit from orbital improvements (the biggie)

All bases are protected from airdrops in the base radius.

All bases get +100% vs air atttacks.

THAT IS ONE HELL OF A SECRET PROJECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Jam

	08-06-2004 04:11									#15
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Not to mention that all air units get +2 movement points.

	08-06-2004 04:21									#16
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Yeah apart from all that, What has the CBA ever done for us.

	08-06-2004 04:26									#17
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Pretty crappy SP if you ask me. Give me the Pholus Mutagen any day.

-jam

	08-06-2004 04:41									#18
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You still have not given me any reason to want to build the CBA. If I am doing a free market, I can't afford to mass an airforce for attack, only interceptors for defense (until Telepathic Matrix, but then its too late). Not to mention the fact that the +2 morale from aerospace complexes is worthless when you have -2 morale from wealth, and then another -2 from Euadaimonia. Ooh, let's see, I can have very green units or very green units, big decision. Not to mention, nobody can airdrop in your base radius if you have an interceptor, which nocks out another advantage of aerospace complexes. As for air attacks, no need to worry, because I'm in the tech lead with better equiped interceptors, and missiles can't do crap with flechettes, especially when I have tachyon fields and high armor. The only worthwhile advantage left of aerospace complexes is satellites. And since the only satellites I build are OPDs, I don't need to build more than one aerospace complex. Now free energy banks in every base, there's a worthwhile project, go for the energy...

	08-06-2004 04:45									#19
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Free facilites are always advantigious. Even if only to disallow your opponent to have an airbase everywhere effectively stopping your recently build drop units. Probes can't sabotage those free facilities as well, remember that.

	08-06-2004 07:18									#20
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Now that is a good reason. Denial to the AI. But then again, using that same point, you could try to convince me to build the Planetary Datalinks, so in a sense, it is not a good reason. I have lost many battles to the AI trying to build secret projects when I should have been building military units for defense. The price of a few bases can go along with the actual cost of the secret project if you are caught off guard in a war, so adding to the list of large projects to build is not exactly what I have in mind. If it gives energy, direct energy, not just free facilities, the I build it. Of course, there are a few exceptions, but only those that advantages truly are advantagous to my style, which the CBA clearly does not fit in...

	08-06-2004 07:37									#21
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Airospace Complexes don't defend against all air attack, the best thing is Dream Twister and Neural Amplifier with plenty of lifecycle boosting Secret Projects and facilities to build killer Locus and Sea Lurks, bypassing deffencess and quickly killing your enemies with a sweeping wave of psi units, also maximising your planet score helps for the attack boast.

	08-06-2004 16:38									#22
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Commy: You don't build production-boosting satellites? Why not??

	08-06-2004 16:45									#23
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quote: Airospace Complexes don't defend against all air attack, the best thing is Dream Twister and Neural Amplifier with plenty of lifecycle boosting Secret Projects and facilities to build killer Locus and Sea Lurks, bypassing deffencess and quickly killing your enemies with a sweeping wave of psi units, also maximising your planet score helps for the attack boast.

Locusts DIE attacking AAA troops with Aerospace complexes. Trust me on this one.

Commy - you really need to consider the advantages of every base popping a couple of sats up. You can basically add ~50% to your min/nut/energy production in a few turns - at every base!

-Jam

	08-06-2004 21:07									#24
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I never said that I didn't build satellites, or that I build aerospace complexes. What I said was that I am not wasting the resources to build an uneccesary secret project for my playing style.

Think about it, say that I have an energy bank (planetary energy grid) in every base, and a hybrid forest and tree farm in every base. Say also that I am doing a free market, and I am doing 50% allocation to economy, and that I have 10 population 11 bases, all identical to eachother. If each base was immune to inefficiency, and was working 11 forests, to get 3 energy in each square, and say that 5 energy were in each base square, then each base would get 38 energy total, 19 of which would go to economy. The facilities would then raise that number to 45. Because of maintenance of the tree farm and hybrid forest, that is 38 ECs of profit from each base, and with 10 bases, that would equal 380 ECs per turn. WITHOUT aerospaces at each base (except the one building satellites), and with exactly 11 energy satellites, each base would make an additional 11 raw energy, or plus 5 energy to economy, which would then be halved to 2, making a total of 21, and with facilities that would come out to be 52 ECs per base, minus 7 from maintenance, making 45 ECs per base, for a total of 450 ECs per turn.

With the CBA, using the same settings as above, I would make 530 ECs per turn. While there certainly are benifits, remember that not all base will be pop 11, will have hybrid forests and tree farms, and therefore the benifits, as far as economics go, will not be as great.

Undoubtly, yes, the CBA is an astounding secret project, but just like the Command Nexus and Maritime Control Center, they are ment for those you would need them, and Morgan is not in need or in interest of being a military superpower, nor am I.

As far as economics and militaries go, I can do a free market and still lead military campaigns if I have the Telepathic Matrix. Capturing numerous enemy cities will give me more power and energy than the CBA ever will...

	08-06-2004 21:13									#25
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What you just described is a snapshot in the game. Your bases continue to grow (or you lose some to the AI), you're empire goes on, whatever way, and seen in that respect is the CBA merely a tool to achieve your goal faster. It's simple as that.

As for your last paragraph, those captured cities will be the more stronger with all those free facilities immediately popping up in them the moment you own them, thus increasing the effect of the CBA tremendiously. It's simply a matter of exponentials, Commy...

	08-06-2004 21:26									#26
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I contend that the Telepathic Matrix should not give you greater returns than the CBA. You should transcend roughly 10 turns after you build the Matrix, but the CBA comes much sooner, just at about the same time you get to build satellites. Rather than build aerospace complexes in each city, build the CBA in one (only 30 rows IIRC) and build satellites sooner in all the others. Furthermore, all your small/conquered bases can completely neglect aerospace complexes and instead build fusion labs or whatever. The CBA would be valuable even if this was all it did, but it has extensive military applications as well.

	09-06-2004 05:50									#27
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The Teletubby Matrix is eye candy.

The CBA, OTOH, is like an HSA against drop units. Always-on satellites and air morale are icing on the cake.

	12-06-2004 01:10									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Qwerty88 Airospace Complexes don't defend against all air attack, the best thing is Dream Twister and Neural Amplifier with plenty of lifecycle boosting Secret Projects and facilities to build killer Locus and Sea Lurks, bypassing deffencess and quickly killing your enemies with a sweeping wave of psi units, also maximising your planet score helps for the attack boast.

As stated below, AAA + Aerospace Complexes spells doom for this strategy. I've been on both ends of this many times.

	12-06-2004 07:57									#29
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Yeah the AAA +100% vs locusts is just brtual, it doesn't matter how darn good your locusts are.... at best you'll be facing 3:4 odds vs AAA units. And if they start cranking out cheap AAA Trance units your attack is done for. Problem with PSI ignoring weapons/armor is it works both ways, expensive PSI units can be countered with dirt cheap conventional units.

Another fun counter to PSI is the slightly bizzare 1-2t-10, clean (3 rows, 2 without clean). Being air, it defends 1:1 against all PSI, making the trance + base + sensor bonuses really rock. And the mobility just rocks too, especially because it can easily cross terrain that bogs down ground-bound defenders.

Oh I love the CBA to airdrop as HSA to probe anology.

The main problem with Telepathic Matrix is by the time you can get it you can run most or all the future SE's, allowing nearly any desired combo of SE benefits without drone problems. The only thing I see it marginally useful for is allowing the devote punishing freemarketeer to scrap all his fun spheres, reclaiming a small amount of cash and lab points. (but this could backfire, because fun spheres also increase probe costs - making them such a tasty buy for captured bases)

	12-06-2004 08:14									#30
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I know its a reasonably far off tech, but if the dissociative wave (Centauri Psi) only fizzled the defender's bonuses, imagine the power of empath dissociative psi choppers!

Anyone know if the D-wave affects attackers and defenders, and if so, does it affect the 3:2 advantage for land attackers? If it's as good as I hope it is, I know that there is something other than locusts that I'd really want.