08-06-2004 11:44									#31
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Sounds like what DD is saying is that the U.N. Convention Against Torture is nullified wrt the U.S. due to court precedent, tho I don't buy that.

	08-06-2004 11:55									#32
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hmm, strike 4 (or is it higher?, the administration hit strike 3 with me recently and so I will not vote my way, instead I will vote them out (if neccesary))

JM

	08-06-2004 12:00									#33
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It would have to be getting difficult to continue supporting them.

	08-06-2004 12:02									#34
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well, my way would be to vote communist

I am just saying that now I am willing to vote democrat

JM

	08-06-2004 12:06									#35
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I was worried when I read about 'intelligence' being linked to the Iraqi prison. But that part of the story didn't seem to have legs. I guess it did where it counts, and now stuff like this in the WSJ.

How could it be about the economy, or anything else?

	08-06-2004 12:09									#36
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I usually vote Democrat, but default to Green when a candidate is available. Had I suspected Bush was going to be as big of a fuktard as he has proven himself to be I wouldn't have voted Nadar in 2000, opting for Gore instead.

	08-06-2004 13:40									#37
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This is all academic gentleman.

It does not say that Bush and freinds IS excersiceing these powers, just that he can. There are lots of things the president can do that would scare you that none ever do.

I am assuming they drafted this because as the witch hunt continues, it will be nessecary to defend the SGT that spanked his kid last year from bieng tried for war crimes. You guys are grasping at straws here as far as magnifying this torture thing. It happend in several places, and included .001 of the current forces fighting terroristm. Hardly epedemic or Admin policy.

	08-06-2004 14:22									#38
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The thing is that I don't doubt that the US is legally allowed to do this, they've exploited loopholes quite nicely. IMHO the strongest argument is not a legal one, it is your standard coherent argument against torture, and the ends not justifying the means, in this case regardless of the ends since people have been violated.

	08-06-2004 15:06									#39
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quote: This is all academic gentleman.

Yeah but its a damn creepy kind of academic. Having memos coming out of an administration and detail how to exploit loopholes in torture laws and generally how to make torture legal isn't very comforting when the administration is involved in a torture scandal and is blaming it on a few bad bananas. This is a bit of evidence that at the very least a permissive attitude towards official torture goes very high up the chain of command and I suspect that more similar evidence will come to light in the coming months.

	08-06-2004 15:31									#40
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Apples, Boshko. They're blaming it on, "a few bad apples." Let's not sully the good name of the almighty Banana, eh?

Indeed, it continues to amaze me the depths of sheepish devotion many people seem to have of ignoring so many clear signs of this administration's willingness to be evil, or at least shamelessly flirt with immorality. And yet people went into outrageous full-body convulsions (heaving with rage or vomit, or both) whenever there was mention of Clinton having sex with Monica (Yes President Dirtbag, bl0wj0bs DO count as sex).

	08-06-2004 17:33									#41
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Bleh.

Come on, November.

-Arrian

	08-06-2004 17:45									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Sounds like what DD is saying is that ....

Gitmo seems to be outside the jurisdiction of US courts. And yes it actually is interesting.

	08-06-2004 18:25									#43
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DD: No-one denies that it is legal. We're questioning whether or not it is wrong.

	08-06-2004 19:02									#44
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quote: Article II Section III

Which does not say the President MUST execute all laws. The President has some leeway in how to or if at all to execute certain laws. It has never been unconstitutional for a President to ignore to execute a law... it may be impeachable, however, if Congress wants it to be.

	08-06-2004 19:18									#45
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Gitmo seems to be outside the jurisdiction of US courts. And yes it actually is interesting.

But how can you use a U.S. court precedent in a place that is outside jurisdiction of U.S. courts?

	08-06-2004 19:21									#46
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Gitmo is not US territory, Its part of Cuba the is leased "in perpetuity" to the US. The US goverment is ofcorse the only power their and thus its in our jurisdiction. This whole "Is it" or "ain't It" argument is bull **** and we all know it. If Gitmo was a UN NAVY BOAT in the middle of International waters would that make one bit of differnce in the constituion or geneva convention?

Check out the arguments made before the Supream Court resently the whole administration Gitmo argument was torn apart, it will probably be a few months though before a rulling is handed down.

	08-06-2004 20:10									#47
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This gets more horrific every time.

No wonder the US government is demanding exemption from the international War Crime's Tribunal for US citizens - the President has the potential to be the worst offender of all!

* MrWhereItsAt shakes his head

Support US troops being in Iraq or not, there are a few things that no-one has an excuse not to oppose. Legal excuses for torture are one of those.

	08-06-2004 20:59									#48
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So are you all saying that if we capture a terrorist who has planted a dirty nuclear device in an american city (we know he did because he is contaminated by radioactive isotopes) that we should just ask him politely where it is?

	08-06-2004 21:54									#49
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, right, cause its between torture and asking nicely.....

	08-06-2004 22:21									#50
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH So are you all saying that if we capture a terrorist who has planted a dirty nuclear device in an american city (we know he did because he is contaminated by radioactive isotopes) that we should just ask him politely where it is?

In that case, you can just follow the trail of radioactive isotopes.

	08-06-2004 22:46									#51
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quote: Originally posted by GePap , right, cause its between torture and asking nicely.....

I'm not sure how to define torture, but it's unlikely that anyone would define 'asking politely' as such. So yes the choice is between 'torture' and 'asking politely'.

Please feel free to answer the question. Its unlikely that you will though, since this is your typical method to avoid any issue i.e. attempt to parse any question down to smaller and smaller bits of trivial details.

	08-06-2004 22:51									#52
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It's interesting how all the propaganda the Soviet Union churned out concerning America seems to be coming true

	08-06-2004 23:04									#53
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And that is the point, what is the middle ground between asking nicely and torture?

It appears that in all this hype we are making torture a much larger category. Sleep deprevation, loud noise, and most nudity stuff (the parades are, in you cell alone nude isn't) has NEVER been considered torture and has been employed forever by everyone to right now.

You all are just causists, so this is the topic we will exaggerate today. Tomarrow you will be asking why we DIDN'T torture more prisoners to stop the next terrorist attack. It is sort of pathetic.

	08-06-2004 23:06									#54
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quote: Originally posted by SpencerH I'm not sure how to define torture, but it's unlikely that anyone would define 'asking politely' as such. So yes the choice is between 'torture' and 'asking politely'. Please feel free to answer the question. Its unlikely that you will though, since this is your typical method to avoid any issue i.e. attempt to parse any question down to smaller and smaller bits of trivial details.

Oh, I am sorry- I forgot you like to peddle in insane generalizations and in unclear terms.....

As has been said before here in discussions about this issue before (though you may have ignored it) torture leads to shoddy intelligence since the person being otrtured will make things up or tell you what you want to hear (as opposed to what is true and you need to know) to stop the torture.

But please ignore this point again. It's part of your charm.

	08-06-2004 23:20									#55
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Oh, I am sorry- I forgot you like to peddle in insane generalizations and in unclear terms..... As has been said before here in discussions about this issue before (though you may have ignored it) torture leads to shoddy intelligence since the person being otrtured will make things up or tell you what you want to hear (as opposed to what is true and you need to know) to stop the torture. But please ignore this point again. It's part of your charm.

Please note Patroklos post. He understood the obvious point even while you chose to continue with your normal song and dance.

In keeping with your own desire to see 'proof' of claims, I'd love to see your reference for the failure of torture to gain results. Please feel free to post anything other than the reiteration of the mindless babble that goes on here amongst those who's life experiences are limited to books (or the internet).

	08-06-2004 23:25									#56
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First, reread the thread on the prisoner abuse case-the long one. the info is there.

As for what Patroklos means-who is he to say that has never been considered torture? talk about pulling stuff out of ass. Certainly the nudity is forbidden as part of the Geneva convention, as degrading prisoners. IN FACT THAT IS THE POINT OF THE ARTICLE!!! Helo McFly! What do you think the admin. lawyers were investigating? How to make bunt cake?

As for sleep deprivation and other methods, this has been in the courts of Israel and IIRC the courst found this to be means of torture, though I think they found it sometimes "justifiable" the first time it went all the way.

	08-06-2004 23:28									#57
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Somehow, it's not even funny anymore to disagree with American conservatives. It's really disturbing.

	08-06-2004 23:28									#58
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Let me tell you: If pictures got out about Saddam stripping American POWs naked and putting them in compromising positions (we're going to ignore the physical torture from both sides), the conservatives would be pointing to it as "Yet another example of why the invasion is right.".

Selective morality....

	08-06-2004 23:33									#59
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quote: As has been said before here in discussions about this issue before (though you may have ignored it) torture leads to shoddy intelligence since the person being otrtured will make things up or tell you what you want to hear (as opposed to what is true and you need to know) to stop the torture.

I would agree with that statment completely GePap, but now with all this hype they are labeling legitimate intelligence and interrogation techniques as "torture."

Basically what the people in this thread want is for every interrogation to take a prisoner into a room with carpet, pretty wall paper and antique furniture (concrete walls and a table and chairs is somehow "torture"), air conditioning (but not too cold, as that is "torture") or heating (but not too hot, you know the whole "torture" thing), with an Armani suit on (anything less would be "torture"), no yelling ("torture"), with the suspect asking the questions (wouldn't want to ask the wrong one ourselves and "torture" them), five minute sessions (wouldn't want to terrorize them with long conversation), No bright light (a good steriotype, but what if his eyes are sensitve...), AND WHATEVER YOU DO NEVER, NEVER, EVER try and obtain any usefull information. EVER.

There is a differance between being tortured and bieng made uncomforable.

	08-06-2004 23:38									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos There is a differance between being tortured and bieng made uncomforable.

And yet, the admin. lawyers considered many of the things you say are not torture "torture", which is why they did this memo in the first place.