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SpencerH
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Co-Ruler of my patch of land south of Birmingham Alabama
Feb 2002
time: 23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
So Spencer (and all those that support breaking these laws), lets look at the alternative:
Lets say that you were fighting in some war, and the enemy captured you. They found out that there was an immenent strike upon their headquarters from maybe something you had on yourself, and they needed to know certain information about it. These are dire circumstances. If they wanted to go around treaties they had signed, and tortured you to get that information, would they be justified? |
I dont support breaking the laws, I simply recognize that there are circumstances in which I would personally do so and where I would support such actions. I also recognize that someone might have the opinion that torture in any form is so repugnant that they would rather a city be destroyed than to use it and prevent that destruction. I dont understand that position since one problem, as I see it, is that virtually anything can be viewed as 'torture'.
You seem to be confusing the torture of soldiers (as defined by the Geneva Convention; which doesnt cover the captives in Guantanamo and some in Iraq) with torturing a terrorist who had planted a nuclear device in a city (in the hope of getting critical info).
Under the circumstances you have set forth (i.e. soldiers in a war) it isnt justified. On the other hand, it would happen, and IMO it would be foolish of them to not use some form of coercion (its a matter of degree).
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Pekka
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em seu burro dos pais!
Feb 2002
time: 07:36
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The way I see it, torture is not acceptable. Sleep deprivation does count as torture if it goes long enough. It has been mention to be a torture method on many different references before this thread. It definitely IS torture method along with denying medical treatment when in need, rationing food too low or denying food for longer periods of time etc. These are ALL torture methods. Don't tihnk about 'well beating in the head with a butt of the gun' is only form of slight torture and electric shocks. Sleep deprvation, food rationing and denial of medical treatment are MENTAL torture. It is designed to break the target mentally. Like chinese water drops. It's very simple. And there is no question if it's torture or not, it is.
Of course this is not to be mixed up with let's say some military police says 'you're not getting food today'.. or 'wake up, it's time for another interrogation'. It's not torture necessarily. When it gets methodical and systematical, then it's torture. There is no if's and but's. If you go to that place, you are justifying the most common methods of torture that are very well known. LIke said, if it's not methodical, it's not torture. **** happens, hey if you don't get food like clockwork, it doesnt' count as torture.
The whole point of following the rules is to protect your own ass. That's the whole point, it mostly protects you and me, so we would have some hopes for fair treatment if captured. It might not come, but if we don't respect the rules, then no one will for sure. We're supposed to represent the free world and western civilized culture here. There is no place for torture in it.
What you are talking about with the example of nuke and one terrorist knowing where it is, preventing death, this is very extreme example. When you play it like that, remember that then you can expand it to 'well some of these guys might know' and you have all these guys which in reality you don't know what they know and if they know or if there even is a nuke anywhere. You go torturing the most prominent candidates, all you got is crap in your hands and that's it!
Have or have we not concluded, that information from torture targets is HIGHLY unreliable? They will lie. ****, after braking them mentally they might lie and believe it's true.. passing all the lie detector tests after that. Then go and figure what the truth is. Impossible.
Also torturing is against human rights. POW or no POW, torturing is against human rights, and those rights are handed to every human being. YOu can't go torturing people it's just that simple. IF you find torturing the only working method, then we are proving ourselves that this democracy of ours is not working and we don't deserve our freedom. We have degorated ourselves in the level of Saddam Hussein and other mother****ers who torture. Have you not forgotten about the pretext to the wars anyway, Saddam torturing his own and stuff.. that flies right out of the window if we feel that yeah well we torture just a little bit and the right people. There is no middle or in between.
FUrthermore, if the case should arise, the nuke example, I'm sure that the patriot the interrogator is would torture the prisoner anyway. The difference is, we as a society do not have to condone that kind of behaviour. We must sentence that torturer into jail for what he did regardless of if he got results. We can't be above the law. The interrogator might torture anyway, and that happens anyway, but we must punish these people for it, NOT justify it, or you can some day find yourself in a dark place and world of hurt even if innocent.
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08-06-2004 23:39
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