08-06-2004 18:35									#1
	Great starts gone worng Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Man, this seems to happen to me all the time, no matter what Civ game I'm playing. This morning I had a smashingly good start...I started with all "standard" settings save for a few rule changes (like non-blind research and Unity survey), Transcend difficulty, all random factions including myself...I drew Yang. I had a continent apparently to myself, or at least mostly to myself, and money just kept coming in, mostly from pods but my econ was doing pretty good for Yang. I was able to switch to Police State quickly and still often had money for rush-building. I quickly had five bases and a couple Colony Pods to spare, was researching Planetary Networks and then I could go for Industrial Automation...a Mind Worm pops up next to The Hive. I decided to activate the lone (shame on me!) Scout Patrol there and let it initiate the battle, and the advisor gave good odds (15 to some low number), so I gave it the OK...bam! Unit destroyed, base gone next turn. I had no headquarters!

I quit the game in disgust. It had been going perfectly until then (well, I probably committed a minor error or two, but who doesn't), but I didn't want to take the time to rebuild my HQ, especially on Transcend. (Unlike you guys, I'm not a Transcend g0dz0r yet. :P)

So, what similar experiences have you guys had?

- Kef

(P.S. The word "wrong" in the topic was misspelled on purpose -- or more accurately, I misspelled it but decided to leave it. )

	08-06-2004 18:50									#2
	Get a bigger avatar today!

If you have "autosave each turn" box checked in Preferences, and aren't playing "Ironman", then just reload the last turn and this time don't attack the mindworm.

	08-06-2004 18:54									#3
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Or better, simply continue the game and get yourself up again. It takes perhaps 5 years longer before you win, so what?

	08-06-2004 18:54									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Similar expierence?

I'd say its the routine of all SP games:
1.You land & quit after seeing you've landed in dunes or island of 1-4 tiles
2.You land, play a couple of nice turns & then a MW eats your base-> you quit
3.You land, play a handful of nice turns & AI grabs your favourite SP just because it had popped 3 or 4 AAs -> you quit
4.You land, play a HUGE amount of nice turns & underestimate Planet a bit with your 20+ ecodamage..
So she pops 10-20 MWs near your SSC & eats it to dust ->
you quit

&so on...

	08-06-2004 19:03									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't quit . ..

I usually try to make sure I have a second unit in the vicinity to protect my HQ. heck even a nearby former will serve the purpose of preventing the capture of your HQ for long enough to rush another scout to kill the worm

	08-06-2004 19:16									#6
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Once MWs destroyed my base in 2101 so the game was over (Do or die on) so I would quit in that case, but the game was over anyway. This was the only time I have seen the movie for losing game.

	08-06-2004 19:35									#7
	Remove this text

Hmm..

I dont remeber having seen that movie..
Will check it out in Scenario Editor!

	08-06-2004 19:43									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I hate quitters. The game isn't so hard that you can't turn a setback into a victory. Some of the best games are when the AI steals the SP you really wanted, and you plan your whole game around getting it back, or where you start in a crappy corner on the Dunes, and when you meet everyone else they already have Fusion, and you have to claw your way into the game...

-Jam

	08-06-2004 19:49									#9
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by binTravkin Hmm.. I dont remeber having seen that movie.. Will check it out in Scenario Editor!

It is like the movie when you eliminate a faction, except that this time you (viewer) are entering the holding cell, and not going backwards.

	08-06-2004 20:08									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Googlie If you have "autosave each turn" box checked in Preferences, and aren't playing "Ironman", then just reload the last turn and this time don't attack the mindworm.

Meh, I don't restore autosaves even without Iron Man; it ruins the game for me. Only time I use an autosave is in abnormal circumstances like a game crash or power outage. (I think I had Iron Man on anyway.) The only time I'll ever roll back a move is when I could learn something by doing it differently, but I usually decide the game to be experimental before doing that kind of thing.

quote: Originally posted by GeoModder Or better, simply continue the game and get yourself up again. It takes perhaps 5 years longer before you win, so what?

With the mental state I was (and am) in, I'd have to save the game and leave it a while anyway. Since it was that early in the game I don't think it'd have been worth bothering. If it were an MP game I'd probably have shrugged it off, though.

Besides, winning isn't a given with me, especially since I've rarely played late into the game, so I don't have as much "practice" there. (Although this kind of restarting is part of the reason why. :P) I have beaten it, but not at high levels...

- Kef

	08-06-2004 20:14									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

About that quitter thing-> I often try testing different strats & to do it I need at least an average startpos to make sure the results are valid..

There are times also when Im too tired to play in dunes-> I want to win & win fast!

But many times I add chalenge to myself by working around the .txt files & some other settings..

So if I seek challenge I do not quit, If I seek some entertainment I often do the quit/quickstart thing & also use some cheats..

	08-06-2004 20:26									#12
	Suffering from ads?

I have only quit one game recently, and that was a couple of days ago playing as Morgan. I ran into two unity pods, and each had 8 mindworms pop out, and I was erradicted, even when I had over 10 bases, about 20 turns later...

	08-06-2004 21:10									#13
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Kef, in SP, the AI never beats you. You beat you. That's the problem with quitting, you never get to find out how good your tactics and strategies are once you get up against the wall.

	08-06-2004 23:01									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If you want to be good at MP you have to learn to fight on against a more powerful enemy. Its not like SP where you can grab all the SPs, zip to choppers and wipe the floor. You will lose some units, you will lose some bases, and you may lose the game.

-Jam

	08-06-2004 23:06									#15
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by binTravkin Similar expierence? I'd say its the routine of all SP games: 1.You land & quit after seeing you've landed in dunes or island of 1-4 tiles 2.You land, play a couple of nice turns & then a MW eats your base-> you quit 3.You land, play a handful of nice turns & AI grabs your favourite SP just because it had popped 3 or 4 AAs -> you quit 4.You land, play a HUGE amount of nice turns & underestimate Planet a bit with your 20+ ecodamage.. So she pops 10-20 MWs near your SSC & eats it to dust -> you quit &so on...

You forgot another one:

5.You land, and immediately decide that you want to play another faction.
6.Same as above, but after a few (dozens) turns.

	09-06-2004 03:04									#16
	Re: Great starts gone worng Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by furrykef ... (P.S. The word "wrong" in the topic was misspelled on purpose -- or more accurately, I misspelled it but decided to leave it. )

Smarta** reply withheld.

	09-06-2004 04:59									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

-sig-
Got myself eaten by MWs. I was going to quit until Mr. Green God annoyed me into playing on.

	09-06-2004 05:22									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I lost badly on one of the "challenge" maps a newbie posted here.

He said something to the effect of, "Why am I not getting ahead? Is it the map?"

The starting position was on a river, but the rest of the territory was arid and inhospitable, a peninsula whose continent-ward reaches kept the tantalizing promise of the Pholus Ridge landmark cruelly covered over by fungus.

The first time I played I had my second base site picked out and *BAM* fungal bloom from a pod. Another pod was full of worms, and another still more fungus.

I thus "started" with 2 bases which were surrounded on all sides by either water or fungus, and under that fungus was an arid desert.

Too impoverished to even compete for Weather Paradigm, which would've been a godsend, I managed to painfully dig 2 more bases out of the hard scrabble, then Santiago, who owned most of the rest of the continent, China to my Korea, sent wave after wave of Impact Rovers down upon me. I negotiated a couple of peace treaties and handed her a few humiliating defeats, but she smelled blood in the water and moved in for the kill.

I replayed the game, and those 3 pods turned into 2 nutrients and a monolith. After a hard run at Weather Paradigm I got condensers onto those nutrient specials and 8 turns later (I counted) took first place -- and never lost it.

The Monolith sped my forces' rush against the unprepared Santiago, who capitulated to my Gatling Rovers and spent the rest of the game on the far north of my huge continent bringing me pact money. (This super-Asia-sized continent was so large it had room for Yang over where Europe would be. Yang's territory was closer by sea to the east than overland to the west.)

Maybe we need a "fungal bloom challenge", hee hee:

Dateline: MY 2104

The 3 nearby pods have all blossomed into fungal towers. Now it's up to YOU to save your beleagered faction!

Seriously, though, play those rough positions and long odds, they're good games. You're not any less l33t if you can't beat the AI when surrounded by fungal towers ... but think of how cool it'd be if you DID it!

	09-06-2004 05:28									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron Kef, in SP, the AI never beats you. You beat you.

By this I suppose you mean that if the AI "beats" me it's completely through my own fault -- which is true, in a way. But I still like to look at games as competition, not necessarily against myself. I'm actually designing a game that is founded partly on the principle of having an apparently intelligent and human enemy.

- Kef

	09-06-2004 05:42									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Just confirming... fungal towers are not active until when the native creatures full strength? Which I believe is 2115 for transcend. So until 2115, fungal towers just sit there quietly not making new fungus patches or gribblies?

	09-06-2004 12:20									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

For me, great starts are wrong. It frustrates me no end when I've made a couple-four bases only to find out that I'm alone on a large continent with the Jungle and the Flats. Ugh!

It's been said a million times, but the map's placement of factions is just so weird. Half the time there's an Uber continent with no faction on it....we're all clumped in the other hemisphere on islands. Half the time four factions will share a small continent with no landmarks. Often, one faction will have the jungle, and two others will be in an archipelago junkyard (seeing as how the AI doesn't land colony pods very often.

As far a great starts gone wrong? I agree that it's best to play on, if possible, but I personally am the worst about re-starting. I have the strange behaviour of needing ironman type rules against my experience and propensity to re-load, while at the same time having the incurable 'Ctl-L' twitch that makes it difficult to stay with turns/games that have taken an ugly turn. When I do stick it out, it's always better.


-Smack

	09-06-2004 15:03									#22
	Tired of ads?

I only restart due to too-good starts, or when playing some oddball ruleset that doesn't allow for adaption. Bad starts are the best, it so owned the time I got one corner of Mt Planet as Morgan on a continent claimed by the Caretakers... and they soon vendetta'd - my 3 bases inside each others radius vs Caretakers a dozen+ bases. I beat them off by running green, building my own mindworms (which I healed in a single tile of fungus), and using the alien resonance armor/guns, with my only human faction contact cha dawn on an island covered in rock and fungus.

	10-06-2004 00:31									#23
	Inflate your Upload Space

Vev, I don't know if fungal towers are "active" in the sense of spewing out mindworms and fungus patches, but xenofungus blooms from pods will definitely create them.

	10-06-2004 02:23									#24
	Inflate your Upload Space

Something I think many of you are missing, is that not all games are played alike.

I typically like to play the "build utopia" style where the main goal is to make a perfect empire. This is kind of like playing SimCity where there is no defined end or goal to the game, you just know when you have built that perfect city. For me "build utopia" includes building ALL the SPs and Transcend only after all tech is discovered. Meaning if the AI beats me to a SP....I'm done. I've been beat.

Alt-F4 deliver me from the agony of defeat.

The first time I beat Transcend, I was playing the Spartans because I didn't realize how bad the industry penalty is and I would try to play them as a builder faction.
I struggled under the University's fat boot for about 3/4 of the game....I was the b!tch submissive for once. Handing over tech and money at a embrassing rate until Zach got himself in over his head in wars. Then I attacked making a b-line to the city with the HSA in it. Once I took the HSA I probed the sh!t out of him until I had tech parity, the rest of the game was connect-the-dots at gun point.
It was a really hard game, one of the hardest I'd ever played, also one of the most satisfying. But years later this kind of game just doesn't do it for me anymore. I realize that I can just go take all the SPs I missed, but I want to play a higher game which requires more planning than reactive military campaign. Not a better, or worse way of playing....just different.

	11-06-2004 18:47									#25
	Put an end to popups!

Here's a start worth giving up. Stupid faction placement algorithm...

Attachment: bad_start.png
This has been downloaded 173 time(s).

	11-06-2004 19:23									#26
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

at chaos theory's start

Thats a good one

I always play with look first on so I could have moved the pod 1 tile down the river and get the transport out into the ocean


It actually is a pretty good start terrain-wise so I would just scrap the transport for its minerals and move on-- you are playing the university after all . .. it should be easy to win

	11-06-2004 20:38									#27
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'd keep the Foil around and scuttle it on a Cpod.
I could probably win on that map.
Send me a save, CT.

	11-06-2004 21:05									#28
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I didn't keep the save, it was one of many while I was continuously generating new games, to see what kind of terrain I could get and how often.

I play with look first off because the AI will do stupid things given the chance.

	11-06-2004 22:07									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Other than the wasted foil that looks like a damn nice spot for a capitol. Two energy and two nut specials, plus a river and rainy tiles. Looks like a winner to me. Was that generated with the "No unity scattering"....the no unity pods option?

	12-06-2004 00:44									#30
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Yes, this was generated with No Unity Pod Scattering.

The spot has the following pros and cons:

Pro: HQ on a river
Pro: 2 nutrient specials
Con: Strongly limited space
Con (and the real reason I would refuse to play this): Stupid land-locked foil!
Con: No unity pods (normally some exist near the HQ)