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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by MrFun
Lorizael -- you take deconstructionism to an extreme level. |
It wasn't 'till I was away from the PC that I realized that he was spouting Post Mod BS. Congrats for catching it, MF.
His arguement stems largely from the idea that consciousness creates reality, the whole, labels are limiting BS. If I tell you this is a 3/16" spanner, that does not limit it to being a 3/16" spanner. If you try and imagine it to be something else, like a 5/16" spanner, it ain't gonna work. That's because reality is limiting. Reality determines the labels we put on things, not the other way around.
Social reality, however, has more feedback. Consciousness does have quite a bit of influence on our constructed realities. Nationality, ethnicity, religion are all products of the mind and exist only in our minds. It doesn't make it any less real for human beings (which Lorizael refuses to call himself, thus opening his entire line of reasoning up to ridicule), however.
I have very little choice over whether or not I am an American. I could become an ex-pat and go somewhere and say I'm not an American, but others would scoff at me. My mannerisms are American. My speech patterns are American. The very way I think is American. These are things that cannot be easily changed. It is not my label that limits me, but the social reality in which I grew that limits me. The label comes after the fact, not before.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by lord of the mark
agree white is a construction, but im not sure about your chronology. White as a category was defined by the dominant old stock protestants, NOT by the immigrant groups - its part of northern and southern mainstream discourse pre-1860, when Irish are still marginalized. Certainly the Irish took advantage of it to enter the 'white' category, but they didnt invent the labels. And Italians were not "white" till much later |
There is a book titled, How the Irish Became White. Irish and Italians did not invent whiteness, as you so correctly point out. As far as me and my Italian cousins go, some still don't consider us "white." Part of Bunnygrrl's family thinks of Italians as fellow Blacks, and they aren't alone. Since I am a mutt, however, you cannot tell I'm of Mediterranian stock from appearances, so I can pass for white. 
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Lorizael
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The Cult Wins
Sep 2001
time: 00:36
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And yet there are people that grow up in America who do not act like Americans.
Btw, I do not think that it is only labels that are limiting. Any complex construct that is a result of the working of the laws of physics is limiting in some way. Thus, the spanner can only be one thing at once.
But as human beings who create labels, we have the power to use them as we please. We cannot control the laws of physics, but we can control those things which are a product of ourselves.
Also, I am not spouting post modern bullshit. No one has ever even adequately explained to me what post modernism is. What I say might sound like it, but I've also been accused of sounding like a racist, a rebuplican, a communist, a transphobic, a faggot, and a host of other things.
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chegitz guevara
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Ft. Lauderdale, FL Communist Party of Apolyton
Jun 2000
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Lorizael
And yet there are people that grow up in America who do not act like Americans. |
Because not all of us grow up in the same social realities. I didn't grow up being hated or alternatively made invisible for the color of my skin, the sound of my accent, etc. I didn't have police start ****ing with me until I was a late teen, and then only for a few years.
quote:
But as human beings who create labels, we have the power to use them as we please. We cannot control the laws of physics, but we can control those things which are a product of ourselves. |
The constraints placed upon us (or lack thereof) are what make the label, not the other way around. As social creatures, we need group acceptance. It is something programmed into our genes. If you are segregated from one group, you will create a group of your own or try and join another one if allowed. It is a biological imperative.
By attacking the label the group has created for itself, however, you are attacking the group. You are saying that who they are isn't good enough for you. Your group is the superior group (yet again), and they should be part of it and abandon their own. Do you not understand how deeply offensive that is?
quote:
Also, I am not spouting post modern bullshit. |
Oh yes you are. You may not understand it or realize it, and you may be spouting a crude version of it, but it exactly what you are doing. PM, in a very brief definition, is the idea that language constructs our reality. We are limited by what words we use and we can not know anything that has not come from the way of thinking in which we exist. Whether or not there is a objective reality beyond our consciousness is irrelevent. This whole "labeling limits me" BS is very much a PM idea.
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Lorizael
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The Cult Wins
Sep 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Because not all of us grow up in the same social realities. I didn't grow up being hated or alternatively made invisible for the color of my skin, the sound of my accent, etc. I didn't have police start ****ing with me until I was a late teen, and then only for a few years. |
*sigh* And then there are people who simply decide for themselves that they don't want to live like an American.
quote:
The constraints placed upon us (or lack thereof) are what make the label, not the other way around. As social creatures, we need group acceptance. It is something programmed into our genes. If you are segregated from one group, you will create a group of your own or try and join another one if allowed. It is a biological imperative. |
Humans are social creatures, certainly, but that doesn't mean we have to act on that inclination. After all, humans are omnivorous, yet there are those that are vegetarian. Compared to most species, humans have very few hardwired instincts, and as such we are much more free in our actions.
quote:
By attacking the label the group has created for itself, however, you are attacking the group. You are saying that who they are isn't good enough for you. Your group is the superior group (yet again), and they should be part of it and abandon their own. Do you not understand how deeply offensive that is? |
Only if I claim that they should then join my group. But if I do not claim to belong to any group, then I am not claiming anything as being superior. Stop making assumptions.
quote:
Oh yes you are. You may not understand it or realize it, and you may be spouting a crude version of it, but it exactly what you are doing. PM, in a very brief definition, is the idea that language constructs our reality. We are limited by what words we use and we can not know anything that has not come from the way of thinking in which we exist. Whether or not there is a objective reality beyond our consciousness is irrelevent. This whole "labeling limits me" BS is very much a PM idea. |
Okay, language constructs reality. Yah. That's definitely not a part of my belief system. Okay. Thanks for clarifying that point for me.
As I said, labels, because they are part of a complex system, are inherently limiting. But labels are not the only thing that limits us, and their is nothing unique in language save the fact that we can control the language we use.
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Pax
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quote:
Originally posted by Albert Speer
MrFun:
first of all, one's political beliefs are up to his discretion, so unlike one's race, one can have problems with another's beliefs.
secondly, the liberal agenda is one of systematic oppression. Abortion has killed tens of millions of blacks and hispanics. the liberal culture of sex has retarded the growth of millions of young women by causing them to have children in their teens. liberals like Jesse Jackson have only escalated racial tension and misdirected the energies of many blacks into blaming whitey or the government for their problems and not lifting themselves up economically. |
I think this is why I usually disagree with you. There is some truth in your statement but you seem to feel that the way to make things better is to take away the nets. How abouyt keeping the liberal agendas and adding education and jobs to help minorities integrate into society and give them more things to do than make babies. That's just one suggestion.
African-American, Black American, Black are all interchangeable and do not suffer the same negative connotation as colored and are not rooted in the past like Negro.
Black Americans and Black Africans have enough differences to make them distinct groups. In fact, Gambians and Senegalese have enough differences to make them distinct groups and they are right next to each other. Africans also divide themselves along tribal lines. You could be a Senegalese French Speaking member of the Wolof tribe or even a Gambian English Speaking member of the Wolof tribe. African Americans have indeed lost their heritage. We don't know where we came from. We don't know what foods our Ancestors ate. Their dances. History. NOTHING. African Americans are obviously different from European Americans. We are a seperate group due to the circumstances of our arrival. Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Jamaicans, Brazillians, and etc have a closer connection with their African heritage. Blacks in the U.S. have to search for their roots as if it were forbidden knowledge because in the past it was.
I personally believe that the salad bowl idea is a better one for america. It allows all groups to maintain their identity and still be a part of a greater group.
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:36
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quote:
Black Americans and Black Africans have enough differences to make them distinct groups. In fact, Gambians and Senegalese have enough differences to make them distinct groups and they are right next to each other. Africans also divide themselves along tribal lines. You could be a Senegalese French Speaking member of the Wolof tribe or even a Gambian English Speaking member of the Wolof tribe. African Americans have indeed lost their heritage. We don't know where we came from. We don't know what foods our Ancestors ate. Their dances. History. NOTHING. African Americans are obviously different from European Americans. We are a seperate group due to the circumstances of our arrival. Cubans, Puerto Ricans, Jamaicans, Brazillians, and etc have a closer connection with their African heritage. Blacks in the U.S. have to search for their roots as if it were forbidden knowledge because in the past it was. |
and therefore, African-American is the wrong term as it has connotations of a continued culture, while ignoring the effects of the diaspora.
quote:
There is some truth in your statement but you seem to feel that the way to make things better is to take away the nets. |
nets? i do not see the net in pre-marital sex or drug use.
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Pax
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I don't see how the term African American ignores the effects of the diaspora. The only real connotation it has is to point that your roots lie somewhere on the continent of Africa and you are now in America. Similar to Irish American.
Liberal politics support programs such as abortion rights to give people more freedom and allow for cases where the Parents feel that they cannot support a child. The purpose is not to promote premarital sex.
Likewise, liberal protests of policies like the Rockefeller drug laws is not to encourage drug use but to administer the law in a fair and balanced way.
These ideals can work to america's benefit if they are implemented with a grand strategy that includes educated people on the effects of premarital sex and drug use while promoting education, providing job opportunities and daycare assistance for single working parents. It has to be a multifaceted strategy that takes all of the issues into consideration.
Pre-marital sex and drug use does not automatically lead to moral decay and teen pregnancy.
I.E. don't knock it until you try it!!!!
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Albert Speer
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Puerile Polemic
Mar 1999
time: 00:36
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Pax:
quote:
Pre-marital sex and drug use does not automatically lead to moral decay and teen pregnancy.
I.E. don't knock it until you try it!!!! |
i can not describe the immense hatred i have for you right now after reading that. i pray that you were joking.
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Japher
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Ook! Ook! Ack! Ack! Ack!
Jun 2002
time: 05:36
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quote:
How abouyt keeping the liberal agendas and adding education and jobs to help minorities integrate into society and give them more things to do than make babies. That's just one suggestion.
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 I don't know what country you live in but those types of things already exist. Sad thing is, education and jobs don't come to you, you have to go to them, treat them with respect, and actually work!
Holy crap!
That's the problem with liberal agendas is that they want to put in these programs that help, but many who use them take advantage of them.
quote:
Liberal politics support programs such as abortion rights to give people more freedom and allow for cases where the Parents feel that they cannot support a child. The purpose is not to promote premarital sex.
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I hate planned parenthood and similar organizations. They do not do anything to educate the ppl about preventing pregnancy, they are only there to take the child from another child when they make a "mistake". Sorry, but you say liberal politics is there to help out people and give them a chance? How can they do that when they treat children as mistakes?!
quote:
These ideals can work to america's benefit if they are implemented with a grand strategy that includes educated people on the effects of premarital sex and drug use while promoting education, providing job opportunities and daycare assistance for single working parents. |
I am all in favor having these programs, as long as they are at the expense of the ones that DO already exist, because the ones that are there (developed by the liberals) are nothing but a wheelchair when all you need is a crutch. It's great to have such ideas, Pax, but it's another to think it will work when many have already failed. So, good luck convincing me and others like me that all we need are a few more programs and another billion dollars and we can help the world, because that just isn't the case. People need to help themselves first.
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Pax
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I was semi-joking about the drug use. I was not joking about the pre-marital sex. Keep in mind that pre-marital sex is not the same thing as teenagers having sex. You have an incredible closed mind, narrow view and unreasonable expectations. The key to curbing most of what you see as societies ills lies not in taking away freedoms but in increasing knowledge levels so that people can make wiser choices.
Don't hate me when I want a better country just like you do. Only in my country people are free to choose not to have sex, do drugs, or an abortion and in your country freedom is outlawed and everyone must behave according to your views as to what is right or wrong.
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Dr Strangelove
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quote:
Originally posted by Pax
I think this is why I usually disagree with you. There is some truth in your statement but you seem to feel that the way to make things better is to take away the nets. How abouyt keeping the liberal agendas and adding education and jobs to help minorities integrate into society and give them more things to do than make babies. That's just one suggestion.
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IIRC the "New Frontier" and the "Great Society" got about a 4 year trial before they were glibly labeled as failures. I worked for Total Action Against Proverty a couple of summers. We were given next to nothing to work with, and the section I worked in was administered by a preacher who hated everything the program was trying to accomplish. Evidently the idea that an organization could teach people to better their lives was to be considered to be some sort of satanic plot. That was my first encounter with the idea that "good works" were an abomination because they interfered with the acquisition of faith. I might point out also that sex and drugs were not originally part of the "liberal agenda". In my experience the liberal agenda didn't fail, it got overrun by libertarians (druggies and hippies) and sabotaged from within by phonies.
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Pax
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quote:
Originally posted by Japher
I don't know what country you live in but those types of things already exist. Sad thing is, education and jobs don't come to you, you have to go to them, treat them with respect, and actually work!
Holy crap!
That's the problem with liberal agendas is that they want to put in these programs that help, but many who use them take advantage of them.
I hate planned parenthood and similar organizations. They do not do anything to educate the ppl about preventing pregnancy, they are only there to take the child from another child when they make a "mistake". Sorry, but you say liberal politics is there to help out people and give them a chance? How can they do that when they treat children as mistakes?!
I am all in favor having these programs, as long as they are at the expense of the ones that DO already exist, because the ones that are there (developed by the liberals) are nothing but a wheelchair when all you need is a crutch. It's great to have such ideas, Pax, but it's another to think it will work when many have already failed. So, good luck convincing me and others like me that all we need are a few more programs and another billion dollars and we can help the world, because that just isn't the case. People need to help themselves first. |
I never said that we should throw money at the problem. However, if we did we should be willing to spend the same amount or more per year that we recently spent going to war in Iraq. After all, it is a real issue that has more effect on Americans than nonexistent WMD's. The best way to combat the issues of joblessness, teen pregnancy and etc is not just to attach dollars to the issue but to use the correct strategy. If your argument is that we already spent billions on the issue and it still is not fixed then I would suggest we evaluate our methods to see what we could do better. I would suggest we evaluate the people running the programs to see if we need people more attuned to the problem. For example, you would be an obvious wrong choice to head and implement job and planned parenthood programs while Che seems to be a much smarter choice.
I don't know what country you live in but in the U.S. whole industries are built around the idea of influencing people to do what you want them to do.
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