09-06-2004 06:26									#1
	Nation-States like game Enter the AD-FREE zone

This continues the discussion started in theMilitary Calculator thread.

In that thread I suggested that Nation States needed more rules and GMs for moderation. This got me thinking a bit. If you've ever played rpgs then I'm sure you've heard of point based systems such as GURPS as opposed to level based systems such as Dungeons and Dragons. Point based systems allow you to create the kind of character you want to play by selecting Attributes and also "positive traits" and "negative traits."

My main reason for lack of participation here is that my nation is not what I want it to be. I want to play a war-torn nation in a state of anarchy, because I think that would be cool. I can't do this with Nation States because of the way it's run. No matter what I do, it seems, my nation keeps getting stronger and stronger!

So why not create a new game similar to nation states, but taking the concept of a point based rpg and applying it. You start with a set number of points, select and "buy," using those points, your nations attributes (population, sq. milage, etc), then select advantages (gold mine, oil, etc.), and a few disadvantages (which would give you extra points) if the player wants them (Anarchy, Guerillas, economic collapse, etc.).

There could be a world GM and Regional GMs who generate and dish out random events such as discover oil, uprisings, protests, etc. For the map, we could use Civ3 to generate a random map, and players buy tiles with their points. We could include rules for warfare, trade, diplomacy, technology, etc. We'd pretty much play civ without the computer!!

Please post comments on this below.

	09-06-2004 07:44									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Well, at least I'm not crazy and one other person voted for it.

	09-06-2004 07:45									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

That was me. Sorry.

The idea sort of reminds me of that Earth 2025 online thing.

	09-06-2004 08:08									#4
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I feel obligated to post this link :

stories and diplo

That done, I would also play your variation.

	09-06-2004 08:14									#5
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I'd play. I love rpg's. Seems a lot of work though. I came here not all that long ago because I wanted something different without too much time wasted. I'm sure ppl here play a lot of different games online and may not have the time or desire to start programming stuff.
It must have taken a bit of time for Rasputin to make his mil calculator. And I'm sure he enjoys doing it but for a game like this to kick off you'll need a few ppl with that kind of dedication.
That said, I'd still play. All concern with no responsibility.

	09-06-2004 08:51									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

Maybe I'm wrong, but you folks don't seem to be understanding completely. I'm not talking about a program. I'm not talking about a web game (web programming that is). I'm talking about designing a role playing game system such as the d20 system, where the "characters," instead of being people, are nations.

Anyway, I've got 3 'yes' votes so I'll kick design discussion off. For now, we'll just use this thread. Eventually we'd need our own forum if this gets at least somewhat big.

Design Issues:
-Do we use civ3 to generate a map (and since this will be run by human intelligence and not a comp, we can do 362x362 maps )
-If we use civ3 - players will buy tiles to make up their nations (or should the GM create nations and the players buy them as whole units?).
-Should we include anything other than military matters and diplomacy?
-What happens to "unclaimed" tiles? Should the GM make nations out of them?
-How often do we need the GM to shell out events, "character points" (used to buy advantages and stuff), migration, etc.? Weekly, daily?

The Nation Attributes:
-Tiles = these are the tiles bought.
-Cities = these can be placed in the editor to show locations on the map
-Population = Each tile comes with 10,000? (this comes out to almost 1 Billion people on a 362x362 map) free, it costs more points for a greater pop
-Tech Level = This defines a general tech level for RPing purposes, should we use the standard tech tree for civ?
-Military = Each "unit" (500 men or items large) costs points

Advantages:
-Nuclear Capapble
-Increased Growth Rate (ups pop growth rate)
-UN member
-UN Secretary General

Disadvantages:
-Land-locked
-No central Gov't (Anarchy)
-Civil War
-Conquered (We could let people play a conquered nation's rebels)

PS, GURPS has a wonderful mass combat system which would allow us to quickly resolve military matters. It is fast and flexible.

Last edited by alms66 on 09-06-2004 at 09:07

	09-06-2004 12:44									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Too much detail already Im thinking. You might be better off thinking along the lines of the Amber rpg. In this sort of online situation you dont want to get too complicated, nor do you want to rely on dice for anything.

	09-06-2004 13:06									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

You don't need dice, just a screen capture of a random dice generator, and of course, all rolls could be made by the GM.

	09-06-2004 13:11									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Seriously though, where combat dice rolls would be required we'd take the next number on the combat numbers list. Which would be a list of random dice rolls, that could be publicly posted. Of course, if the list is public, wars could be timed in such a way as to coincide with the "good runs" and I'm not sure how to combat this. Perhaps just shuffle the numbers before every combat, somehow? Or even have several such lists and no one knows before hand who uses which one?

	09-06-2004 13:24									#10
	Support Apolyton

Do you see how complexity begets complexity? In your own two posts youve gone from dice to having several random number lists.

Each item in your post describing the game will come with a similar little expansion of complexity until the game itself becomes lost in the details.

Dont get me wrong, this is a good idea, but you dont want alot of rules. Each one adds things that need to be tracked and clairified. And you abselutely dont want random number generation involved at all unless you intend to create a multiplayer interface to handle it all.

	09-06-2004 14:17									#11
	Got spare money?

Ok, so how exactly would you propose doing it? You mention Amber, which I've heard of, but never tried. Though I personally don't think the random number thing will be an issue. I can write a simple program to spit out thousands at a time. If they are preposted and the GM assigns the random number charts before the battle, I don't see anyone objecting.

Also, I never advocated using dice, except in response to you suggesting it, and only as a joke (the post with the in it). I was actually thinking of using a random number generator all along to replace the die rolls, though until the previous post, I hadn't really thought out how to do it in a fair and consistant manner that wouldn't leave the GM doing all die rolls and players wondering if the GM is being fair to them in said rolls. Where I mention "die rolls" you could also just read "random number" but since I'm discussing this as though it were an rpg system, and everyone thinks dice when thinking of rpgs, I use the dice/die rolls thing.

An alternative to using charts, which only adds to the GM's workload, is to allow earned "character points" to buy combat points (only nations who want them for war, need buy these). These combat points could then be used to "buy" dice rolls centered on a bell curve of sorts. Simple yet effective, no?

Third and final point, I'm just throwing ideas out for discussion, I'm in no way considering making these the "final" rules for people to decide whether or not to play. I'm hoping, by posting such ideas publicly, that a few people here will join in the design process and we can hopefully get something reasonable hammered out in a short period of time. This design would not be chipped in stone, mind you. It would need to remain flexible, seeing as it can't be tested privately (at least not by me), to cope with possible design flaws that may arise months down the road. If we use the GURPS mass combat though, at least that part has been fully playtested.

	09-06-2004 15:09									#12
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I'll post a condensed version of the mass combat rules below so others can comment on it, without having to go buy the book.

1. Each unit type (archer, spearman, etc.) has a troop strength (TS).
2. Each side's TS is totaled from all units at the battle.
3. Each unit has a morale and experience which modifies their abilities and the strategy roll.
4. Special Unit superiority gives a bonus to the strategy roll. Special Unit superiority would apply to cavalry, artillery, aircraft, etc. Some units, while not acting as special units, can nullify them (pikemen vs. cavalry, anti-aircraft vs. planes, etc.)
5. Each side has a commander with a strategy skill which is modified by the plan, defense, etc.
6. Catastrophies are rolled for. These could be anything from nothing to spies revealed plans, take triple casualties. I actually don't like the chart in the book because it causes too many catastrophies IMO, so I'd use another.
7. Strategy roll is made, a chart is consulted, and based on the chart's result, casualties are calculated. Rinse and Repeat or Retreat.

Now, that's extremely condensed and without individual player character "glory" stuff. I've used this in table-top roleplaying before, and I find it works great. These are not wargaming rules, however, so there are no gory details, just casualty lists. It would be up to the players and the GM to add life to the numbers, as is the case with any roleplaying game.

	09-06-2004 15:11									#13
	Remove this text

quote: 6. Catastrophies are rolled for. These could be anything from nothing to spies revealed plans, take triple casualties. I actually don't like the chart in the book because it causes too many catastrophies IMO, so I'd use another.

You got that right. Even without having the enmy meddling around trying to cause the bloody things, you still get some kind of catastrophe ~75% of the time.

	09-06-2004 15:19									#14
	Economy Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

We could break this down into several categories such as Light/Med./Heavy Industry, L/M/H Manufacturing, L/M/H Commercial and L/M/H Industrial. We could get even more specific here, but this simple list will suffice for now. Players spend points to buy levels of each of these. Each earns the player money and perhaps has a few bad things with it as well (increased civil unrest F.E.). The money could be used to pay for his military support, buy things that points could buy, etc.

We really don't have to do the money thing, I just thought I'd throw it out there. This at the most basic level just needs to show who has a strong economy vs. a weak one. It could even be boiled down to a single attribute.

	09-06-2004 15:21									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by GeneralTacticus You got that right. Even without having the enmy meddling around trying to cause the bloody things, you still get some kind of catastrophe ~75% of the time.

I see you've played with these mass combat rules before, eh?

	09-06-2004 15:23									#16
	Suffering from ads?

Not as such (other than a couple of time solo to test it), but I can tell just from looking at the table that catastrophes will happen more often than not.

Of course, we don't have to worry about people actually causing catastrophes here, as we have no magic, no psionics, and no superheroes.

	09-06-2004 15:33									#17
	Got spare money?

But we could have spies.

	10-06-2004 18:49									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, that ain't NS-killer, but I could play it quite nicely. Keep up the brainstorm and hopely we get something out of this!

quote: Design Issues: -Do we use civ3 to generate a map (and since this will be run by human intelligence and not a comp, we can do 362x362 maps )

Why not, maps are pretty in CIV3

quote: -Should we include anything other than military matters and diplomacy?

Trade perhaps?

quote: What happens to "unclaimed" tiles? Should the GM make nations out of them?

Of course! Then we could conqore them!

quote: The Nation Attributes: -Tiles = these are the tiles bought. -Cities = these can be placed in the editor to show locations on the map -Population = Each tile comes with 10,000? (this comes out to almost 1 Billion people on a 362x362 map) free, it costs more points for a greater pop -Tech Level = This defines a general tech level for RPing purposes, should we use the standard tech tree for civ? -Military = Each "unit" (500 men or items large) costs points

For all:

quote: Disadvantages: -Conquered (We could let people play a conquered nation's rebels)

Ecspecialy loving this.

	11-06-2004 06:06									#19
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Do we get to start on an even footing?
My nation's 4 times the size of most others (otherwise my map would look unbalanced), but has 35% less pop. than the big'uns.

	03-08-2004 04:09									#20
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In designing the rules for this, I searched the web for other games like it. Just recently, I found the perfect one, IMO, therefore, I've stopped designing and have joined this group. Since there was some interest here for a more rules-driven game and they are in need of players, I thought I'd add the link here.

	04-08-2004 03:36									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

it a bit to rulesb ased !!!!