09-06-2004 19:40									#1
	Something that bugs me ever since Civ3 vanilla Tired of ads?

Cultural buildings are autorazed upon capture.
The purpose is of course to prevent invaders from gaining culture points from other civ's constructions.

However, a better way to do it would be to keep the buildings but not generate any culture for the conqueror (like how Wonders work currently). If you want the culture, sell the building and build one yourself. Alternatively, let culture generate only when certain conditions are met, like for Fascism.

Currently, huge captured cities are quite useless as you lose all happiness buildings and science buildings automatically. Not to mention, you get high revolt chance, encouraging the starvation of huge cities.

Perhaps a mod can alter this?

	09-06-2004 20:28									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Why? It seems just right to me. You should have a chance to get a revolt in a large city. You should lose those structures and have to rebuild them.

	09-06-2004 21:05									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Actually, you do not lose all happiness improvements. The marketplace sometimes stays. I find that if I have control of enough luxuries, this makes a huge difference in the overal start of a newly captured city. It is inconsistent to have some buildings maybe stick around and others definitely disappear. I can justify the religious buildings by envisioning that everyone has their own state religion that is incompatible with all others, but that is stretching it. A common tactic is to incorporate the old religion into your new one in some form or another, either by design or by happenstance. And besides the historical example of the burning of the Library of Alexandra, I can think of no reason an invasion is guaranteed to destroy a library or university. It is especially inconsistent when the culture effects of Wonders is handled so cleanly. I understand it as game play, where the new city is a challenge to manage and that becomes part of your war plans and execution, but it is a little clumsy.

Then again, so am I. And so is life outside of Civ, for that matter. Maybe this is all more reflective of "reality" than I first thought.

	09-06-2004 22:02									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Why not keep the culture?
If Russia invades Egypt the pyramids didn't suddenly lost all their cultural value.

Just name it 'foreign culture', and as long as the people are in resistance, the culture is against you. But as soon as you are the obeyed ruler of a city, it adds to your own culture.

	10-06-2004 01:39									#5
	Put an end to popups!

Maybe this should depend on government type. Before the Taliban were removed from Afghanistan they erased everything that was non-islamic. However I have'nt seen the Americans or British razing mosques in Afghan or Iraq.

	10-06-2004 02:35									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well maybe not on purpose, but I am sure that in any conflict of any decent size, some structures are damaged or destroyed.

Palace and hotels took damage and some religious things were damage. This could be by the invadoers or the resistors.

	10-06-2004 03:08									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The in-game effect of temples and cathedrals is to make the population content. In a situation of occupation, the native religion often does everything but help the conquered accept the conquered.

	10-06-2004 03:18									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Why Libraries and Universities, though, or especially Research Labs?

	10-06-2004 03:46									#9
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Wasn't this done to balance things?

	10-06-2004 03:49									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Lets remember it is not a simulation and does not have to be realistic. Many things were done to make the game play better or for convience.

	10-06-2004 05:22									#11
	Re: Something that bugs me ever since Civ3 vanilla Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Fistleaf Cultural buildings are autorazed upon capture. The purpose is of course to prevent invaders from gaining culture points from other civ's constructions. However, a better way to do it would be to keep the buildings but not generate any culture for the conqueror (like how Wonders work currently). If you want the culture, sell the building and build one yourself. Alternatively, let culture generate only when certain conditions are met, like for Fascism. Currently, huge captured cities are quite useless as you lose all happiness buildings and science buildings automatically. Not to mention, you get high revolt chance, encouraging the starvation of huge cities. Perhaps a mod can alter this?

Dont station troops in the City, and let it burn. If it revolts just use the guys you have outside to take it back. Thats the work around anyway.

	10-06-2004 13:31									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Kucinich Why Libraries and Universities, though, or especially Research Labs?

Good question.

Tangentially, I've always wondered why Research Labs produce culture. I'd say that modern science has very little to do with national/cultural cohesion and pride.

	10-06-2004 14:17									#13
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Of course it doesn't have to be realistic, but I think it's fun to have 3 temples in your city. 1 ancient greek temple which attrackts millions of tourists and gives you only cultural points / tourist money. one ancient egyptian temple idem.

And of course your own modern temple in which the people worhship their modern selves.

And by any war it should be possible that improvements get damaged. A damaged temple could be as cool as an intact temple as well, for culture / tourists.

Of course there must be a good I said good city view in which you can see the things your city makes famous.

And of course *micromangament alert*
- see how many french people visit your city and how much they spend (rich nations spend more)
- see how many german people visit your city etc.

if you're inwar with the french, no french will visit your city. If there's war around your city, no tourists at all.

Good relations with your neighbourse results in more tourists and more money.
Of course it must be possible to micromange things in your city to allow more tourists / cheapen things / etc. etc.

If you dislike micromangament, the AI will do it all for you. I would *love* it to micromange some big cities like that in my empire.

	10-06-2004 19:30									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It just seems that Firaxis arbitrarily decided to autoraze all cultural improvements after city capture to prevent any confusion about ownership of culture.

If the structures are destroyed during war (% chance of happening), I am fine with that, but not with autorazing.

I have nothing against the city revolt chance. It's just that with this autorazing, it discourages owning of huge cities and encourages starvation of cities. They should at least give some chance that a surviving temple may be present to alleviate the unhappiness. Surviving libraries also help to increase the asset of capturing the city.

	10-06-2004 19:52									#15
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I agree that it's daft. I like the "foreign culture" model. Alternatively, it makes sense for cultural buildings to retain their benefits but lose their culture, just as Wonders do. You could always make such buildings more likely to be razed in a capture, but not definite.

By the way, the Library of Alexandria seems to have been gradually lost over a long period. Part of it was burned down when Julius Caesar invaded, and much of the rest was probably lost when Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria destroyed the temple of Serapis in the late fourth century. It was not a single library building, you see, but spread out over the city in a number of locations, together with the Museum that accompanied it. The story that all the books were burned by the Caliph to heat his bathwater when the Muslims invaded (because any book that disagreed with the Koran was blasphemous, whilst any that agreed with it was superfluous) in the seventh century is just a myth.

	10-06-2004 21:06									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

In the editor, isn’t there a (I’m a little fuzzy here) “retain culture on capture” option or some such. What does this do?

	10-06-2004 22:53									#17
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist Good question. Tangentially, I've always wondered why Research Labs produce culture. I'd say that modern science has very little to do with national/cultural cohesion and pride.

what about JPL?

	11-06-2004 00:19									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by TheArsenal In the editor, isn’t there a (I’m a little fuzzy here) “retain culture on capture” option or some such. What does this do?

It means that when you capture a city, all of the culture the previous owner had accrued becomes yours. Cultural improvements are still destroyed though IIRC. Basically, it means when you take a city, you keep the expanded borders (they used this in the Napoleon conquest, for example).

	11-06-2004 10:41									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

Nah, that's too much........
It makes the cultural part of the game unbalanced...

	11-06-2004 20:09									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: what about JPL?

If the JPL is an important bit of America's culture, or even considered a cultural institution, I've missed that.

	11-06-2004 20:58									#21
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

JPL? What's that?

	11-06-2004 21:12									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Jet Propulsion Labs - one of NASA's top scientific labs.

	12-06-2004 05:12									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Last Conformist quote: what about JPL? If the JPL is an important bit of America's culture, or even considered a cultural institution, I've missed that.

Its a point of pride isn't it?

	17-06-2004 10:11									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by CyberShy Why not keep the culture? If Russia invades Egypt the pyramids didn't suddenly lost all their cultural value. Just name it 'foreign culture', and as long as the people are in resistance, the culture is against you. But as soon as you are the obeyed ruler of a city, it adds to your own culture.

Er, that IS what happens. The total culture another civ built up in that city IS used to figure out the chances of a flip. When the old civ gets that city back they get the culture back they had to begin with.

I can see why culture buildings get 'sploded though - wouldn't you want to stop your enemy from gaining access to your knowledge and knowledge facilities by destroying what they could take (Libraries, Universities, Research Labs), and in a conflict between cultures, religious buildings would be natural hotbeds of anti-occupation activity. If you get rid of the existing ones and build them anew, you are attempting to convert the citizens. Keeping the old Temples etc would be like having a foreing newspaper in town - it will not make anyone happy towards the local power.

	17-06-2004 10:55									#25
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Er, that IS what happens. The total culture another civ built up in that city IS used to figure out the chances of a flip. When the old civ gets that city back they get the culture back they had to begin with.

I know that it's partly there already. But it never adds up to your own culture as soon as you really took the heart of the citizen. neither does it show up in your screen, like "60% dutch 20% german 17% french 3%russian"

	17-06-2004 11:09									#26
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

True, I guess a numerical indication would be nice, but why would the old civ's culture become yours? You're working from scratch. You had nothing to do with that old culture.