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Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
time: 23:36
  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:17
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Study says &quot;For Profit&quot; hospitals cost more than non-profits Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote:
Study: For-profit hospitals bill bigger


WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- U.S. hospitals owned by investors with the aim of making money are less cost-efficient than nonprofits, Canadian researchers said.

And experts who wrote a commentary on the study said converting all investor-owned hospitals to nonprofit status could have saved $6 billion in 2001.

The report, published in Monday's issue of the Canadian Medical Association Journal, adds fuel to the debate over whether health care should follow a business model.

Dr. P.J. Devereaux and colleagues at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario, reviewed medical studies on hospital care in the United States, covering 350,000 patients and hundreds of hospitals.

Devereaux, a cardiologist, said he had to study U.S. hospitals because "the U.S. is really the only country which has any large degree of investor-owned, for-profit health facilities," he said in a telephone interview.

But he said he wanted to contribute to a debate over Canadian health care.

"In Canada, there has been an intense debate for a number of years now over whether we should move beyond our current not-for-profit health care facility," he said.

"We all want to know what is the most effective way to deliver health care," he added. "It should be driven by evidence, not people's ideology."


More costs, more deaths

Devereaux and colleagues earlier showed that for-profit hospitals had higher death rates.

"The reality is that for-profits face significant economic challenges. The first is they have to generate revenues that will satisfy shareholders," Devereaux said.

"Second, they have high executive bonuses. Thirdly, they are very top-heavy and have high administrative costs. Also, they have to pay taxes. That is a lot of extra money that they have to come up with," Devereaux added.

"Instead of finding new efficiencies, folks were cutting corners in quality health care, and also people were having to pay more for care."

In a commentary published in the journal, Dr. Steffie Woolhandler and Dr. David Himmelstein of Harvard Medical School commented that 13 percent of all U.S. hospitals are for-profit, and said converting them to nonprofit status could have saved $6 billion of the $37 billion spent on care at investor-owned hospitals in 2001.

Woolhandler and Himmelstein, both prominent in a group called Physicians for a National Health Program, have long argued for comprehensive, nonprofitmaking health insurance for all Americans.

"Investor-owned hospitals charge outrageous prices for inferior care," Woolhandler said in a statement.


"The for-profits skimp on nurses, but spend lavishly on their executives and paper-pushers."

Himmelstein pointed to fraud cases involving for-profit health care companies including Columbia/HCA Healthcare Corp. , which was hit by a Medicare scandal in 1997; Tenet Healthcare Corp., which is being investigated for allegedly overbilling Medicare; and HealthSouth , where 15 former executives have pleaded guilty to criminal fraud charges.

"In health care, crime pays handsomely," Himmelstein commented.


Emphasis added by me.

This is yet another piece of evidence that supports the notion that non-profit health care is more efficient and better for patients. I continue to be baffled by the baseless assertions that for-profit hospitals are more efficient and provide a higher quality of care.

And I'll make a prediction. The same "profit loving" right wingers on these forums will continue to support their incorrect and morally bankrupt ideology about healthcare. The evidence is clear and in excess. The United States needs to join the rest of the civilized world and provide non-profit care to it's people. This isn't even about economics or political ideologies. It's about human life.

link: http://www.cnn.com/2004/HEALTH/06/0...reut/index.html

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:22
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1) it doesn't say government-provided healthcare is better, it says non-profit healthcare is better. There's a difference. You still have to pay for non-profit healthcare, and it doesn't (necessarily) receive government funds. It still survives on its own revenue.

2) regarding this quote:

quote:
U.S. hospitals owned by investors with the aim of making money are less cost-efficient than nonprofits, Canadian researchers said.


Cost-efficient in what way?

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:26
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quote:
Cost-efficient in what way?
that means it costs MORE for care that is lower quality

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:27
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Ah, for the user, you mean. Normally, cost-efficiency is from the perspective of the owner...

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich
Ah, for the user, you mean. Normally, cost-efficiency is from the perspective of the owner...
no, it means for the business... didn't you read how the administrative costs and overhead are higher?

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:30
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Got spare money?

You just said for the customer, at least it seemed like you did.

Quite obviously, for-profits are more cost-efficient from the point of an investor.

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich Quite obviously, for-profits are more cost-efficient from the point of an investor.
Did you just read the article? or did it pass through your swiss cheese brain?

read this slowly so you can comprehend, m'kay?

FOR PROFIT IS LESS COST-EFFECTIVE THAN NON-PROFIT...

meaning COSTS ARE HIGHER FOR THE SAME (or in this case less quality) CARE

COST HIGHER = BAD FOR INVESTORS

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:37
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Sava, don't be an idiot. You understand that the word non-profit has two components, right? "non" and "profit"? As in, they don't get profits? And without profits, it's cost-efficiency is zero from the point of an investor, because there is no return!

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich


Sava, don't be an idiot. You understand that the word non-profit has two components, right? "non" and "profit"? As in, they don't get profits? And without profits, it's cost-efficiency is zero from the point of an investor, because there is no return!
You have no clue what cost-efficiency is.

I don't know how else to explain cost-efficiency to you. I tried to in the most simple of manners... but failed. I can only imagine the frustration your teachers go through.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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May 2001
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:47 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich


Sava, don't be an idiot. You understand that the word non-profit has two components, right? "non" and "profit"? As in, they don't get profits? And without profits, it's cost-efficiency is zero from the point of an investor, because there is no return!


You're using the wrong terminology you wingnut.

Cost-efficiency is a measure of output over input.

Profitability or having a higher return on investment is a measure of (revenue - expenditures) over capital

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:47
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Cost-efficiency from the point of the investor is, obviously, how much it costs to get a certain return on investment. It has nothing to do with how much X quality service costs, except insamuch as that effects profits. Since non-profit hospitals obviously DON'T have profits...

EDIT: re Sava

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:50
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
You're using the wrong terminology you wingnut.

Cost-efficiency is a measure of output over input.


Which can be return over investment...

I can say "oh, such and such is not cost-efficient" and mean that it's not economically viable.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:50 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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Cost efficiency for an electrical company would be number of kilowatt hours delivered divided by what they spent in dollars.

Profitability would be what they charged minus what they spent and all divided by the value of their capital (if you want an attraction level for an investor)

Just because a business is profitable does not mean it is efficient. Just because it is efficient does not mean it is profitable.

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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May 2001
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:51 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich


Which can be return over investment...

I can say "oh, such and such is not cost-efficient" and mean that it's not economically viable.


You could if you wanted to use the term in a completely different way than the rest of the English-speaking world.

Cost efficiency has nothing to do with how much you took in in revenues.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:51
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quote:
Cost efficiency for an electrical company would be number of kilowatt hours delivered divided by what they spent in dollars.


That's cost-efficiency for a customer - kilowatt-hours delivered divided by what they paid in dollars.

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:51
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Thank you KH...

I feel like:

ghen is offline ghen
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:53
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Government run health care would inevariably turn into another underfunded political battle. I do NOT want the same government that screwed up social security handling my health care!

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Sava
Thank you KH...

I feel like:


You being the wall, obviously.

Sava is offline Sava
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Mar 2001
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:56
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quote:
Originally posted by ghen
Government run health care would inevariably turn into another underfunded political battle. I do NOT want the same government that screwed up social security handling my health care!
I don't necessarily want it to be government run (and even if it, I would make it apolitical)... it should be non-profit.

Sorry... but profit is fine when your selling TV's, cars, and other consumer goods... or selling services that aren't crucial to human life. But profit needs to take a backseat to human life. Call me a crazy commie or bleeding heart liberal... but I think human life is more important than profit.

Sava is offline Sava
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich


You being the wall, obviously.
If the banging smiley is your pathetic teenage attempts at debate and rational thought... then yes... I am the wall standing firm in the face of ignorance and stupidity.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:58
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quote:
I don't necessarily want it to be government run (and even if it, I would make it apolitical)... it should be non-profit.


It obviously already is, given the fact that non-profit hospitals exist for them to study... but why would you forbid a person from building a for-profit hospital? If the service really is less cost-effective from the pov of the consumer, why would they use it?

KrazyHorse is offline KrazyHorse
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 03:59 Visit KrazyHorse's homepage!
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich
quote:
Cost efficiency for an electrical company would be number of kilowatt hours delivered divided by what they spent in dollars.


That's cost-efficiency for a customer - kilowatt-hours delivered divided by what they paid in dollars.


You're a moron. Go look up the definition of cost efficiency. There's no such thing as "cost efficiency for the investor". There's a perfectly serviceable measure known as "return on investment" which measures what you're describing. There's absolutely no reason to confuse the two terms.

In addition, the measure of cost efficiency has nothing to do with the customer. The price the business charges for the good or service in question does not necessarily correspond to the amount of money providing that good or service costs the business.

To summarize: profit/value of capital = return on investment

goods delivered/costs incurred in delivering them = cost efficiency

goods delivered/price paid by the consumer is completely separate from either. I know there's a term for this but can't come up with it right now.

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 04:01 Visit chegitz guevara's homepage!
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The forces of darkness and ignorence are ever ready to fight you, Sava.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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Feb 2001
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 04:02
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Whatever... as the entire argument stemmed from me asking for clarification of the article...

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 04:03
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Well...


DUH

Aeson is offline Aeson
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Nov 2001
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 04:06
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Exactly Spiffor!

CostOfProduction = Price1
CostOfProduction + Profit = Price2

chegitz guevara is offline chegitz guevara
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich
If the service really is less cost-effective from the pov of the consumer, why would they use it?


Mostly because they have no choice. Most of the U.S.'s non-profit hospitals were either converted or purchased during the 80s and 90s. In the U.S., there aren't many non-profits left. Those that are usually underfunded government hospitals, ghen's point being made. The comparison in the article is between Canadian non-profits and American for-profits.

I'm not sure there is necessarily a fair comparison, since Canada has better health care in general, it is more likely that their hospitals don't see as many serious cases as American hospitals do, problems being more likely to be caught early and treated before hospitalization becomes necessary.

It's still an indictment of the system, regardless.

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 04:07
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The most interesting part is this: it shows where your health money goes to waste in a profit environment:

quote:
Devereaux and colleagues earlier showed that for-profit hospitals had higher death rates.

"The reality is that for-profits face significant economic challenges. The first is they have to generate revenues that will satisfy shareholders," Devereaux said.

"Second, they have high executive bonuses. Thirdly, they are very top-heavy and have high administrative costs. Also, they have to pay taxes. That is a lot of extra money that they have to come up with," Devereaux added.

"Instead of finding new efficiencies, folks were cutting corners in quality health care, and also people were having to pay more for care."


I especially love the "high administrative costs" bout, because the main criticism against public hospitals is the bureaucracy / inefficiency.

Kuciwalker is offline Kuciwalker
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 04:09
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quote:
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Mostly because they have no choice. Most of the non-profit hospitals were either converted or purchased during the 80s and 90s. In the U.S., there aren't many non-profits left. Those that are usually underfunded government hospitals, ghen's point being made. The comparison in the article is between Canadian non-profits and American for-profits.


What kept the same thing from happening to the Canadian hostpitals as the American?

Spiffor is offline Spiffor
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  Old Post 10-06-2004 04:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Kucinich
What kept the same thing from happening to the Canadian hostpitals as the American?

I am no specialist by any standard, but I'd imagine the answer is regulation

 
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