10-06-2004 21:04									#1
	Numidian Mercenaries Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

So I'm playing this game (60%, continents, culturally linked starts) as the Inca when the first tribe I run into is Carthage (followed by Egypt, Byzantium, and Rome). It hadn't occurred to me before that the Numidian Mercenary (NM) was 2.3.1 !!!

I had picked up 4 or so conscript warriors, built a few archers and horsemen and was going to take them out early in the hopes of getting a GL and their ivory (Carthage has built the Statue of Zeus). Then when I saw what they were defending their cities with, I pulled back. I have finally attacked, now having Med Inf, but their NMs are a royal pain due to their pikeman-like defense and their reasonable counterattack.

So, my point is, is the NM too strong (even at 30 shields) for too long (from the ancient age to gunpowder)?

Last edited by sfgreenday on 11-06-2004 at 02:40

	10-06-2004 21:30									#2
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Civs with super defenders like Greece and Hannibal are best left till later. Then their UU is not so hot. If you can muster an army to attach those units, then it is a different story.

AC and Nums are going to be hard to over come in the ancient age.

But I don't see them as over powered.

	10-06-2004 22:22									#3
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Nah, the Numid is fine at 30 shields. I don't think it's that great a unit, actually, despite facing a horde of them in one of the PTW Demogames (pbem games played by teams). 30 shields is a lot to come up with early on.

I'd rather have a hoplite (same d, 2/3 the cost). It's not like I attack with Numids more than once or twice a game. I build attack units for that.

-Arrian

	10-06-2004 23:03									#4
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They can be a royal pain, though, eh, Arrian?

	11-06-2004 00:34									#5
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I agree with the consensus here. They are an average UU - not too strong, not too weak (for the cost).

	11-06-2004 02:34									#6
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So I took four cities from them after waging a LONG war in a Republic (probably should have switched to Monarchy earlier). One of them was Carthage, which netted me 2 Ivories and the Statue of Zeus. I managed to get a GL, which I used to build an army just as I discovered Chivalry. Put a couple Knights in there and they did their job.

Egypt decided to attack (they had to come through Carthage territory) the next turn after peace, and I used them to further upgrade my troops, getting two more GLs (one for an army, another for the FP, in Carthage).

Just got Mil Trad, going to finish off Carthage soon.

As for NM strength, maybe you guys are right. However, I don't want to get stuck next to them early on again.

Last edited by sfgreenday on 11-06-2004 at 02:40

	11-06-2004 03:18									#7
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Sounds like you handled it just fine. Maybe the next time they will not also have Zues.

	11-06-2004 03:44									#8
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Rather have a Hoplite, or better yet, a Swiss Merc, but Numidians are just fine the way they are. Carthage is a heck of an early defender, and a great choice for a peaceful builder type (much like Greece, although I like Carthage's traits better). If you're going up against Hannibal or Alex in the AA, you may as well wait. William, attack early. Joan... well, are you really that scared of defensive bombard?

	11-06-2004 06:11									#9
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Numidians are basically pikes you can build early, with a bonus to attack in case you need them for mopping up wounded units. I don't think that's overpowered.

It's the Hoplites that have all the power...

	11-06-2004 06:13									#10
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Don't forget Enkidus. Those are quite nice.

	11-06-2004 22:19									#11
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NM are OK. Recall that the same 30 shields would also build the 3/3/1 Legionary, the 4/2/1 Immortal and 3/1/2 Mounted Warrior - much better units although they need resources. The 30 shield 2/2/1 Javelin Thrower is a no resource UU that can truly be awesome with a little luck.

It's the Hoplite and Swiss Merc that are the real bargains IMHO.

	12-06-2004 02:48									#12
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Also the Musketeer, to a degree.

	12-06-2004 22:23									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Nakar Gabab Joan... well, are you really that scared of defensive bombard?

The problem with attacking joan, isn't the unit, but rather the GA triggering in the medieval age. They can get much more mileage out of it than others due to the likely republic and moderately advanced civ. Attack the dutch? Their GA will at most produce other SM's and MI's. French will spit out knights and musketeers. I've made that mistake (granted, a few years ago) and a few turns into the war was facing swarms of em. Granted, I was a noob at the time, but its something you have to keep in mind.

I like NMs, but rarely play as carthage. I would much rather have an ancient offensive unit like the MW

	13-06-2004 02:33									#14
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My favorite from this period is the legionary, taking into account the Romans militaristic trait.

	13-06-2004 04:43									#15
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I like NMs a lot.

They have excellent defense, and also a good attack. When it comes down to large stack warfare, not only can you depend on your Swordsmen to be able to deliver a strong attack, you can use your excellent defenders for that role as well.

As pillagers NMs are horrible to have to deal with. Their defense is amazing (try taking these guys out when all you got is Archers), and they also have a strong enough attack to take out units that might be defending enemy tiles (Warriors especially).

	13-06-2004 15:15									#16
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The Numidian Merc is just about the only UU that has made me fervently wish that I could build the normal unit instead - those 10 extra shields can be a real killer early on when you need a defender ASAP.

But most of the time they're quite OK. Not quite as nice as the Hoplites, but not bad. Done some of my best pillaging with them.

	13-06-2004 16:52									#17
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It could be worse. In real life the Numidian mercenaries were light cavalry. Imagine Carthage with a fast UU.

	13-06-2004 19:12									#18
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Starting an early war to give them their Golden Age during despotism can be a good tactic. Its certainly useful against the builder types who like the Numids to act as deterrents against an early war.

	13-06-2004 19:12									#19
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Numidian Mercs. are closer to Math than Hoplites are, which means Mercs.+Cats is easier to set up.

	17-06-2004 00:24									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi They can be a royal pain, though, eh, Arrian?

He is beginning to find that out

	21-06-2004 00:02									#21
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I dont think the NM is very good at all. I ussually wont have 30 shields to defend my settler. NM's would be a lot better if you got them with construction or something.

	21-06-2004 22:48									#22
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By the time Construction comes along, you and the AI are probably close to Pikemen anyway so the NM's 2 attack would be completely outclassed.

All in all, NM's are kinda so-so. Yes, you get an unbeatable 3 defense unit early in the ancient era BUT at 30 shields a pop, you'll probably still be defending with Warriors for quite a while. Attack of 2 is meh. I mean, how many Archers do you typically build? That's how valuable 2 attack is. Yes, I sometimes pop-rush an Archer to fend off an imminent attack but I don't ever normally build them once something better comes along. The retreat and mobility of the Horseman or the extra attack strength of the Swordman is superior.

Still, a couple NM's in the right chokepoints can doom an AI attack and even take out a stray Archer or Horse on occasion.

Last edited by gunkulator on 21-06-2004 at 22:57

	22-06-2004 01:41									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Dominae Numidian Mercs. are closer to Math than Hoplites are, which means Mercs.+Cats is easier to set up.

I thought they both replaced the Spearman = came with Bronze Working.

	22-06-2004 02:16									#24
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I'm extremely partial to the Carthaginian civ and especially the Numidian Mercenary.

Numidian Mercs are a really good UU for a civ without iron or horses, an all too frequent occurance in the early game with C3C's resource distribution. Building an army of Numidian Mercs and Catapults is even relatively easy to do (especially with Carthage's industrious trait to give an early economic boost) and you can hold your own against an iron-equipped civ.

Even once you have iron and horses and you are combining them with swordsmen and horsemen (later knights and medieval infantry), they are still at least as useful as pikemen, capable of attacking when a wounded enemy presents itself, and will start your golden age at not too bad of a time.

That Carthage is also now (in C3C) a seafaring civ that can bulid an early curragh or two to discover the locations of their opponents and make trades with them early in the game makes the civ even more effective in my opinion. Identifying your target with curraghs and then building the NM+catapults army (along with swords and horses if you have the resources) to take them down using your industrious workers to power your economy can be quite nice.

The thing that is best about the Numidian Merc is its versatility. For 30 shields, you get a unit that is fantastic on defense, at least average on attack, and is highly useful in defensive, offensive, and pillaging roles. When these suckers are combined with a tall stack of catapults, it takes A LOT to defeat them.

	22-06-2004 02:56									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Kucinich I thought they both replaced the Spearman = came with Bronze Working.

Yes, but Carthage starts with Masonry; Greece doesn't.

	22-06-2004 03:30									#26
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I think sfgreenday is talking about how NMs are good for the A.I. which is bad at exploiting UUs.

Due to their cost, they do seem like a bargain if you compare them to pikemen at 30 shields. But actually, they're one of the least cost-effective unique unit in the ancient age. They're useful till gunpowder but their advantage is in that moment of time between bronze age research and iron working.

Greece and Sumeria get cheaper defensive units earlier. More defensive bang for their buck. Persians get medieval infantry cheaper in the Ancient age. Romans get swordsmen that defend as well as pikemen for the same cost, more whistles for a same cost as a NM. And of course there's the almighty spear thrower whose enslave ability can make and break a game in the hands of a human player.

	22-06-2004 04:26									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Kloreep Yes, but Carthage starts with Masonry; Greece doesn't.

Well, yes, that's true.

	22-06-2004 05:53									#28
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The key to Carthage's advantage is the combination of their UU's versatility, its great defensive abilty, it's effectiveness even in the absence of both iron and horses, and its combination with their industrious trait.

The other civs with good ancient-era UU's may have slightly better cost-effectiveness than the NM for any specific task, but in all cases the civilization carries a liability that is greater than the NM's additional cost in my opinon. Greece has neither the industrious trait nor the agricultural trait - on top of which it must build its archers seperately if it has no iron (though having seperate units for attack and defense for an additional 10 shields a piece is arguably advantageous). Rome can't even build its UU if it has no access to iron and Rome isn't even industrious or agriculatural. The same problem applies to the Persians, though at least their civ is industrious. The Celts have the same problem, though at least they're agricultural (and religious to boot... a great ancient era civ if you get iron).

The Mayans are the only civ that competes in this regard, since their UU requires no strategic resources and they are both industrious AND agricultural. The only liability for them is that their UU is as expensive as the Numidian Mercenary, but only has 2 defense and 2 attack.

	22-06-2004 06:37									#29
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The problem with using the NM in this way is that you are essentially building 30 shield archers. I find the NM a Liability, because i cannot build 20 shield defensive units. That extra 10 shields is hard to come by in the ancient age. It might be a reasonable unit if you could build spearmen also... but even then it is only a convenience that you can build pikemen without iron (and face it, if you dont have iron by middle ages, you dont stand a chance anyway).
Maybe there is some hidden use for them, but i just dont see it...

	22-06-2004 10:52									#30
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quote: Originally posted by zorbop The problem with using the NM in this way is that you are essentially building 30 shield archers.

What about the 3 defense?

NMs can be used for defense (where they excel), offense (where they're average, but when combined with Catapults they can be very vicious), pillaging (high defense means a lot is required to take them down AND their 2 attack means they can take out units that get in their way) or any other role you can imagine them in early on. And you'll be counting your lucky stars if you're without resources.

Yes, at 30 shields you'll have fewer of them, but their sheer utility is amazing.

And as far as not having iron into the early Medieval, I beg to differ. If you don't have iron by the Industrial, then you're looking at trouble (no RRs, etc.), but early on a large group of NMs and Cats when used properly can be very effective.