12-06-2004 05:04									#1
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My apologies to the Ministers of anything this question involves (I don't want to step on any toes here), but I want to try and get some sense of how we should be trying to win this game. We are in a very weak position, but we do have some time (abvout 150 turns). How should we approach winning this very difficult situation?

The usual approaches are trade, sea power, land power, tech advantage, Wonders, diplomacy. We have limited ourselves of some and cannot do others in our weakness. So what do we really want to try?

I suspect land units are our only option, but I would love to haer any other ideas. Espionage seems a very long ways away, so it is unlikely we can steal advanced techs. Communism and Fundamentalism seem almost as far to reach.

If land units, do we want to form a horde of Crusaders and try our luck, or do we want to hold out for Musketeers for their balance of attack and defence? Should we wait for something better with less time to use them? Should we go for Knights immediately and try those.

Should we target nearby cities for capture to get techs and to spread geographically or should we focus on specific cities with Wonders advantageous to us and hope we can hold them?

Should we set up some target cities near opponent civs to be taken so we can take them back and gain techs?

I think we need to decide how to play out the rest of this game.

	12-06-2004 06:28									#2
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I am glad to see this new thread as I have been thinking the same thing. So

Looking at the Wonders list, UN, CfC, and Hoover have been built. It is a good bet that nearly everyone has Conscription/Riflemen. That is both good and bad. The good thing is that IF we manage to take a city we can get Conscription to bolster our defenses (and it is required for Fundy, something the AI eschews, usually, until they have no other choice). The bad thing is obvious; we will be attacking Rifles with obselete Crooks. Our only hope is that only our Crooks are vets, there is only one defender, and the city we hit does not have walls. Even then we may need a gob of Crooks to take and hold a city, even though vet Crooks attack at 10.

But what else can we do?? Waiting for muskets?? Too slow and too weak -v- Rifles or, Heaven forfend, Alpines or Calvary, or Mech Infantry. Knights are little better. We need punch...and a lot of luck.

Based on Killdeer, the Suefolk are between us and the Egyptians. Our hope lies in the absense of purple WOWs. If that means they are laggards, we may stand a chance -v- them.

But not now!! Not until we have more cities, more roads, and better tech. That screams out to me not to send our Explorer in that direction, now. I will take any odds that a chance meeting will immediately cause a War. So, I say we continue our building program and hope for the best. Apolyton will probably have its supply freed when the Salt is delivered. A change to another camel would then allow a delivery for more cash and beakers.

(I highly dislike having Apolyton make settlers at this point. We need it at size 12 for maximum Xinning and delivery bonus, and we really don't have time now to celebrate. Wait until most of the colony is size three and celebrating will make sense, but not now...IMHO.)

That's my take. I hope everyone else will weigh-in with a 'vision thing' kind of piece.

Monk

	12-06-2004 07:50									#3
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The colony cities are making Settlers. I think we can relive Apolytonia of that duty. But there may be times where Apolytonia has no better option to build, so I wouldn't forbid it.

	12-06-2004 10:16									#4
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Cavebear: No need to Apologize to the Minister of Trade or the Minister of War, both Ministries are somewhat in Limbo right now without Units or Caravans (but we will soon have plenty of both I am certain!!)

Espionage is indeed a long ways away (minimum 12 techs by my count......Warrior Code, Iron Working, The Wheel, Engineering, Invention, Physics, Steam Engine, Bridge Building, Railroad, Industrialization, Communism, Democracy and Espionage) but I think we should not forget it as a goal, as the key to this game will still be catching up in the tech race (or if not catching up, then at least closing the gap) and I don't think we can do so without spies.

On that topic, perhaps I am not so afraid as others that we are so far behind, the Zulus are obviously in a class by themselves, judging by Wonders of the World alone. The Celts on the powergraph are not far behind and could be similar to them in tech. However, judging by the AI research in most of the games I ahve played, I suspect the others are not so far ahead as many seem to fear (but I am often accused of being an optimist ).

On exploring, I would like to see us with more boats (Galleons won't cause unhappiness and are only 4 techs away, plus they carry more units making the long trips more worthwhile). Boats are also less likely to cause a war then units, as they won't initiate contact (as land units do).

But the key to our success is more cities, and I would like to see Apolytonia and the colonies continue to produce settlers for new cities until we run out of land to place them (lets take advantage of the one opportunity that we have.....open land). As for needing temples, if we have the gold, use it.....one turn to have at least one shield produced, and rush the rest of the temple. As for Apolytonia needing the max size for the delivery bonus, we have 3 full slots and no Caravans, if this were different I would consider the arguement, until it is, I think the settlers adn more cities are more important.

* Sparrowhawk who could go on talking for several more paragraphs, but will stop there before you are all

	12-06-2004 10:27									#5
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O Great Minister of Trade, on this you are wrong...

"As for Apolytonia needing the max size for the delivery bonus, we have 3 full slots and no Caravans, if this were different I would consider the arguement, until it is, I think the settlers adn more cities are more important."

We do have a Caravan, the itinerant Salt, and when it gets delivered, it will almost certainly free up a supply slot. So, it is different; please reconsider the arguement. Thanks.

Monk

	12-06-2004 10:37									#6
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I had already posted about that Salt Caravan and already forgotten about it!

You are quite correct in that we have a caravan....and I will assume you are correct that it will result in freeing up a slot (though I realize that we cannot be 100% sure of this), but....while I will happily support a Caravan next using that newly freed slot, which will once again fill the supply slots, and if this pattern does not continue (and I don't think we know that it will) then I propose we continue with Settlers in Apolytonia and for the few Caravans we are delivering from there, we should be fairly certain that the city will be size 12 when the delivery is made.

I question I would like to see answered is one I posted in the game progress thread regarding Xinning.

I think we should stop Xinning now and switch our tax rate to either 70 S, 20 L, 10 G or 80 S, 20 L, 0 G until we bring down our surplus enough so that we can at least contact the AI which is most receptive to us at that point.

	12-06-2004 10:46									#7
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If want to bring down the surplus, just rush buy things that are required now.

	12-06-2004 10:49									#8
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Such as the two temples we are currently building in the colonies I agree. It is after that that it gets a little questionable as most of our cities are building settlers, and rushbuying them only works once I think (most of our colony cities cannot support more then one settler I think). But this may not be a problem if we settle in the sites proposed, as they are all fairly close to our cities. (and will need temples....which will also need to be rushed).

	12-06-2004 10:59									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I know you are 'hot' to talk to someone in this game and I too would like to talk to the Celts and/or the Persians at some point. But let's keep in mind the cash requirements for ~ 7 Temples and 13 Colosseums. Ideally, it would be as you suggested, one turn and rush.

I like the idea of changing the sliders to 1.2.7 and stopping the Xining. At 6/turns for discoveries and only -5 g, that sounds good to me. As the number of Tem/Col add up, a further change to 2.2.6 seems like a good plan to me.

I question the efficiency of making Setts in Apoly' and shipping them to the Colony or elsewhere, to say nothing of the Population hit, now that the Colony is up and growing. Set the B/Order to Caravels and either build boats or shift to camel if a slot opens up. We need more boats, too.

Monk

	12-06-2004 11:16									#10
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okay, though I don't recall which minister is supposed to poll on tax rates there isn't much for Trade to poll on, and this would make sense for the Minister of Trade to start a poll (and if I wasn't the Minister of Trade Iwould probably think it wasn't the Minister of Trade's responsibility).

Working on a poll now.....not sure about how many options (10/20/70, 20/20/60, etc) but I will try to cover the major ones at least.

* Sparrowhawk

	12-06-2004 11:24									#11
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better add a stop the madness, err, Xining option.

Monk

	12-06-2004 11:42									#12
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as I am putting in the poll, I think that is a Science question, but one I think I can safely assume you won't mind me asking on your behalf

(in other games some Ministers...present company included....get a little annoyed at others stepping on their "turf")

	12-06-2004 20:03									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Sparrowhawk as I am putting in the poll, I think that is a Science question, but one I think I can safely assume you won't mind me asking on your behalf (in other games some Ministers...present company included....get a little annoyed at others stepping on their "turf")

Not very Democratic of them was it!! Not my turf, anyway; I'm just renting for the nonce.

Monk

	12-06-2004 22:09									#14
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The Salt Caravan is only 2 turns from either Giza or Killdeer, so that will be out of our way soon. It might be best to change Aploytonia to another Caravan in anticipation of the next trade good. And since a Caravel is heading back to Aolytonia now, it will be able to ship out a new Caravan quickly (4 turns).

	12-06-2004 22:17									#15
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A couple of other points...

I would love to stop Xinning (for entirely selfish reasons). It takes a lot of time, and it is not something I am used to doing. If we get any more cities able to Xin (and on different schedules) I will lose what is left of my tiny ursine mind :LOL:

I think we should rush the Settlers and Temples in the colony cities to get them free for more Settlers until we have reached our temporary limit on cities and have enough Settlers to build our Road network. Then we can start thinking of Crusaders!

	13-06-2004 00:00									#16
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear The Salt Caravan is only 2 turns from either Giza or Killdeer, so that will be out of our way soon. It might be best to change Aploytonia to another Caravan in anticipation of the next trade good. And since a Caravel is heading back to Aolytonia now, it will be able to ship out a new Caravan quickly (4 turns).

Two points
--The Salt can be delivered in one turn by chaining with the other boat; and Giza seems to be the better prospect since it is bigger.

--The boat heading back to Apoly' is homed there. Should we not consider sending it to Utica or some other Colony city for rehoming and possibly continue on exploring the coatline to our East??

Changing away from Settler to Camel is a wonderful idea!!

Monk

	13-06-2004 01:07									#17
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear A couple of other points... I would love to stop Xinning (for entirely selfish reasons). It takes a lot of time, and it is not something I am used to doing. If we get any more cities able to Xin (and on different schedules) I will lose what is left of my tiny ursine mind :LOL: I think we should rush the Settlers and Temples in the colony cities to get them free for more Settlers until we have reached our temporary limit on cities and have enough Settlers to build our Road network. Then we can start thinking of Crusaders!

No offense to Master Xin, but I agree with you. It will be much easier and the benifits of Xin are not so pronounced any more.

Rushing is a good idea.

I have been trying to figure out how to word AND how many polls are needed for all the Colony City Planning Possiblities. If I remember correctly from my Development Project, we can make ten cities on this map before initial disorder. That's just three more cities. Do we hold at ten, or depending on available cash, keep building cities, knowing they will need an "immediate" Temple?? Then, the question becomes, do we hold cities at size 3 or start making Colosseums for further growth now. Then there are other possible build orders for the Colonies like boats. Then there is the possibility (liklihood??) that Markets will be necessary for the Colonies to celebrate for growth rather than natural growth. Maybe we should, after Colosseums are in place, rush settlers in food rich cities to build into others.

So dang many possibilities!! So dang many questions!! I will attempt to muddle through, but any thoughts about possible questions anyone would like to poll will be considered.

Monk

	13-06-2004 01:44									#18
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I say yes to more then 10 cities (and immediate temples) and no to colleseums right away more settlers and more cities rather then colleseums). Perhaps Marketplaces rather then colleseums? Cheaper and they increase both Trade and Luxuries (and thus happy citizens).

I would like to see a second Science poll from you (as Monotheism (or whatever we decide to research next ) should be complete before the end of the next turnset.

As for other polls, I agree you are in a difficult position...I would like to see a poll on every city and what to build next but this seems excessive...how about one poll for all the colonies with a few options each? A: Caralis-Settler, Caravan, Elephant, Marketplace or Colleseum (or some similar options??) and the same in the same poll for each of the colonies?

	13-06-2004 02:13									#19
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Sparrowhawk,

Taking your paragraphs in reverse:

3) Still working on it

2) Done

1) Marketplaces, at 20% Lux, will not allow growth to size 5 with no redheads, for most cities, maybe all. There is no substitute for Colosseums if want cities greater than size three AND able to use all the workers without needing Elvis impersonators. Markets have little effect until the cities are working roaded or special tiles. With cities working shield tiles, and at 20% tax, Markets are just a maintance drain because most only yield 1g taxes/turn.

So, do you still say no to selected Colosseums?? How about for the frontline cities, Utica and Panama??

Monk

	13-06-2004 02:44									#20
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Chaining will work just fine to get the Salt off our list, We did not forbid ourselves ship-chaining (an oversight, probably). Great observation, Monk, LOL!

If we rehome a Caravel to Utica, that will cause it to be delayed in picking up the Apoytonia Caravel being recommended (change from Settler) but will be well worth it, I think.

We can control population growth in colony cities by moving Workers to Forests or by building Settlers that will exist for a while building Roads.

I favor bringing cities to a size where we can celebrate them to 8 rapidly, the better to support our building of attack units. The point is to to create attacking units to capture cities for techs and Wonders. Otherwise, we have no chance at this game.

With continued trading, we can keep enough gold aroubd to build immediate Temples for some new cities when required.

	13-06-2004 02:47									#21
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The colony cities are not so different that each requires a separate poll. Probably, a general set of build commands is sufficient.

	13-06-2004 03:13									#22
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear Chaining will work just fine to get the Salt off our list, We did not forbid ourselves ship-chaining (an oversight, probably). Great observation, Monk, LOL!

Thank you, Sire!! Why would you ever want to forbid ship chains??

quote: Originally posted by cavebear If we rehome a Caravel to Utica, that will cause it to be delayed in picking up the Apoytonia Caravel being recommended (change from Settler) but will be well worth it, I think.

Check the poll, Sire. I am sure you meant to say, "This will be no problem because, surely, a new commodity slot will open when Salt is delivered and a Camel will be built next in Apolytonia. Caravels are recommended only as a substitute for Camels when they are unavailable,"

quote: Originally posted by cavebear I favor bringing cities to a size where we can celebrate them to 8 rapidly, the better to support our building of attack units. The point is to to create attacking units to capture cities for techs and Wonders. Otherwise, we have no chance at this game. With continued trading, we can keep enough gold aroubd to build immediate Temples for some new cities when required.

I absolutely agree with this sentiment and strategy. However, I must call attention to the resistance from the hoi polloi err, citizenry to even build the Colosseums necessary for size 5, much less size 8. So I urge you to use your bully pulpit to drum up more support for Colosseums.

Monk

	13-06-2004 23:31									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Thank you, Sire!! Why would you ever want to forbid ship chains??

We have, in various games, forbidden ourselves different units or strategies in order to make our challenge greater.

quote: Check the poll, Sire. I am sure you meant to say, "This will be no problem because, surely, a new commodity slot will open when Salt is delivered and a Camel will be built next in Apolytonia. Caravels are recommended only as a substitute for Camels when they are unavailable,"

I meant Caravan, not Caravel. Sorry. Other than that "Yes, what he said".

quote: I absolutely agree with this sentiment and strategy. However, I must call attention to the resistance from the hoi polloi err, citizenry to even build the Colosseums necessary for size 5, much less size 8. So I urge you to use your bully pulpit to drum up more support for Colosseums.

Bread and Circuses must given attention. We will need Colosseams at some point. The rabble Citizens need entertainment to remain happy in larger numbers!

	14-06-2004 13:08									#24
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On the size of colonies question ...

my experience from early landing games is that with a temple but no colosseum, it is usually possible to have a size 5 city with two non-workers (either scientists or taxmen). This usually takes care of any food surplus, but reduces the available shields. However, if we can get a good trade system going, we will be able to rush build which will reduce the impact of the loss of shields.

The other possibility (but one that needs to be handled carefully) is xinning with disorder in our size 5 colonies - ie allowing the colony to go into disorder on the turn where we are putting food into the food box.

RJM at Sleeper's

	15-06-2004 10:22									#25
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quote: Originally posted by rjmatsleepers On the size of colonies question ... my experience from early landing games is that with a temple but no colosseum, it is usually possible to have a size 5 city with two non-workers (either scientists or taxmen). This usually takes care of any food surplus, but reduces the available shields. However, if we can get a good trade system going, we will be able to rush build which will reduce the impact of the loss of shields. The other possibility (but one that needs to be handled carefully) is xinning with disorder in our size 5 colonies - ie allowing the colony to go into disorder on the turn where we are putting food into the food box. RJM at Sleeper's

I have had some success in Early Landing Games, and never have I been able to do as you suggest, except with fewer than nine cities, total. Beyond that level, approximately every two additional cities causes an older city to go into disorder. This is something that can not be sustained where there is already zero food surplus. That city will starve when you are forced to make a third elvis.

Until we find some large offshore AI cities, a "good trade system" is a non-starter. That means we will need all the shields we can muster to build and support some additional boats for exploration. I fail to see how we can do this quickly without colosseums.

Finally, cavebear has already expressed a desire to end the one city Xinning we have been doing. I can't imagine he will look forward to "Xinning with disorder" across many cities, even if it is possible. Can this be done in Republic without crashing the Senate??

Monk

	15-06-2004 10:44									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Finally, cavebear has already expressed a desire to end the one city Xinning we have been doing. I can't imagine he will look forward to "Xinning with disorder" across many cities, even if it is possible. Can this be done in Republic without crashing the Senate?? Monk

Well it can be done, but it is tedious in the extreme. You must make sure that the cities are synchronised so that they go into disorder at the same time. I did it once in a game where I lost my capital before I had learned how to build a palace and consequently fell way behind. I would certainly understand if our noble leader didn't want to follow that path.

RJM at Sleeper's

	15-06-2004 22:45									#27
	On Xinning w/ Disorder Suffering from ads?

Yes, we agree that this would be very tedious.

What I would like to see is some discussion as to how this would be helpful in reaching our immediate goals.

Certainly it would be nice to get research completed faster. But, isn't our first priority to get our Colony in a more defensible position?? And by defense, I really mean offense.

Monk

	16-06-2004 11:27									#28
	Re: On Xinning w/ Disorder Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Certainly it would be nice to get research completed faster. But, isn't our first priority to get our Colony in a more defensible position?? And by defense, I really mean offense. Monk

You are right that we must prepare ourselves for when we start to attack the AI civs. If the minister of war is happy to attack with crusaders then researching faster is not a high priority. (I assume we are reasonably close to monotheism.) If this is the case perhaps we should begin a few barracks when our current builds are completed and be ready to switch builds to crusaders once we discover monotheism.

If we need to discover some other technology - coscription, leadership, armoured warfare, machine tools, fundamentalism, whatever - before we launch our attack, then it's worth considering ways in which we can increase our research rate.

RJM at Sleeper's

	16-06-2004 11:50									#29
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rjm

Something in what you write makes me wonder if you have looked at the game. Can this be true??

Monk

	16-06-2004 22:55									#30
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While perhaps we should wait for RJM to answer your question Monk, I should let you know that this is the first Civ2Demo Game where the save is available to all (at least as far as I know), so most of us are used to commenting on the game without being able to view the save, so if RJM hasn't downloaded it or viewed it, it is not only possible, but quite likely the way he has always played it (Demo Games).

Having been in the position of speaking about the game without being able to view the save, I can tell you it can be frustrating to try and assess our situation by screenshots alone but this was how it was done (and I am not sure which was better.....screenshots only encouraged people to run for Ministerial positions and forced them to post many screenshots which encouraged discussion).

The jury is still out in my book. (Although I think it was made available to all due to lagging interest).