13-06-2004 04:51									#1
	Poll: '53 Colony Build Orders Support Apolyton

Now that we are about to start many more cities, we need some general standing instructions for our Consul as to what each city should build. Of course, an emergency puts the ball strickly in the Consul's hands.

Loosely, I recommend the following "Consensus"...
--Keep building Settlers until we get a workable mass of cities
--Add Temples and Colosseums as needed
--Keep a force of Settlers on hand for roads, etc
--Give the Consul limited discretion to build other units (boats, fighters)
--Give the Consul limited discretion to start Barracks in a timely manner

There are so many permutations I feel it best to make this an "idea" poll, which means please make your write-ins clear and concise. Other suggestions as to how to handle this in the future are welcome. Thanks.

Monk

	13-06-2004 08:02									#2
	Tired of ads?

We need to get out of republic if we are trying to get on a war footing.

That's the first decision we need to make. If we go to monarchy and try to celebrate our capital, it may prove far more beneficial than a republic, without loss of science.

	13-06-2004 08:57									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi We need to get out of republic if we are trying to get on a war footing. That's the first decision we need to make. If we go to monarchy and try to celebrate our capital, it may prove far more beneficial than a republic, without loss of science.

At this point, in Monarchy Apoly' will need ~50% Lux to celebrate. With the addition of a Bank, Apoly' will celebrate in Monarchy at 30%, I think. The advantage is one less food per Settler and three units are free per city.

Who is responsible for a change of Gov't Poll??

Monk

	13-06-2004 20:57									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Who is responsible for a change of Gov't Poll??

I found this in one of the threads from January, please note the portion that I bolded for clarity (as it directly answers your question.

quote: Originally posted by Cavebear Despotism 1. In Despotism, we have one (initially-elected) leader who will play the game as usual in short (generally 5-8 turn segments) and report on the progress of the game. 2. In Despotism, the Despot is encouraged but not required to ask opinions and advice. 3. The Despot may or may not ask some players to fulfill certain functions of planning or advice. 4. The Despot may be cast out by majority decision at any time by citizen poll (not to be less than 3 days). 5. A “Remove the Despot Poll” will be phrased as “I propose myself as new Despot” yes/no. Monarchy 1. Upon achieving Monarchy, play will stop and an election is required. 2. The Monarch will choose the positions of Minister he desires and appoint them (subject to acceptance by the appointees). 3. The Monarch must have at least 3 Ministers and is expected to follow their advice. Republic/Democracy 1. Upon achieving Republic/Democracy, play will stop and an election is required. 2. There will be elections for Ministers of Trade, War, City-Planning, and Science. City-Planning includes new locations. 3. The Consul/President can be removed at any time for not following advice of Ministers. 4. The Consul/President can remove any Minister for bad advice and appoint or allow election for a replacement. Communism/Fundamentalism 1. The same Secretaries/Priests as Republic/Democracy except that any can be removed at any time for any reason by the Premier/High Priest. 2. The Premier/High Priest can be removed only by majority decision of the Secretaries/Priests. Citizens Any Citizen can post a poll at any time demanding a change of government available at the time (3 days minimum poll and specify kinds of governments to be considered).

Having posted this, I will tell you now that I will strongly oppose a change in Government at this time and suggest that we stay in Republic until either we are ready to go to war or we have a higher form of Government (Communism, Fundamentalism or Democracy) or until we are under attack and need to move our units outside our cities in large numbers.

Until any of the above, I think Republic is key to giving us at least a somewhat reasonable tech rate for new advances and if we can't begin to catch up in the tech race we are doomed regardless of our Government choice.

* Sparrowhawk

	13-06-2004 23:02									#5
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Upon further review (see elsewhere) I came to the same decision. Republic suits our needs very well at this time.

Monk

	14-06-2004 00:07									#6
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I also think we should remain in Republic for now. We are not yet on a war-footing, so we should use the advantages of Republic while we can.

	14-06-2004 00:13									#7
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As for Monk's question about handling polls...

Sometimes there are so many possibilities that you just have to have a first broad poll to determine what thing to focus on in a second poll.

	14-06-2004 01:13									#8
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Okay. But youse guys need to vote. Four have posted, no one has voted but me.

Monk

	14-06-2004 06:25									#9
	Suffering from ads?

Thought I did. Now I have.

	14-06-2004 12:36									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I go along with the consensus plan, remembering that the devil is in the detail.

How many is a "workable mass" of cities?
There is a lot of discretion in deciding when a coloseum is "needed"
What limits are we proposing on the Consul's discretion to build units or barracks?

I'd like to see us continue building cities while there is suitable land for a new city to reach size 4 or 5. (But we may have to stop city building once we get into a major war.)

I'd be inclined to hold of on coloseums until we are ready for more celebration in Apolyton. As far as possible we should cope with unhapiness by recruiting scientists, taxmen or xining.

I'd give the Consul full discretion on building units or barracks where he believes there is a good operational reason to depart from the "consensus" plan.

RJM at Sleeper's

	14-06-2004 21:37									#11
	Colosseums are necessary Tired of ads?

RJM

Cities can not work more than three citizens without colosseums, making Xinning a faint hope.

We can go on building cities that top out at size 3, or 4 with entertainer, until 2020 if we choose, or until the Zulus(?) land on AC, or until we are discovered by the AI, which will probably trip a War. There is lots of available land in this peninsula and some nearby islands, too.

But, if we want to try to win this thing, I think the sooner we can gear up and go take some cities the better. I mentioned 13 cities because that is the extent of our current exploration AND seeems a good place to start building Col for city growth, barracks for vets, and Crooks (which will be here soon) to shape up a fighting force with. Our only hope of catching up in Discoveries is to take cities and win Scrolls.

If you can see and describe an alternative path, please, please share it with us. We are getting very close to that proverbial fork in the road that cavebear was thinking of when he offered the strategies thread.

Monk

	15-06-2004 10:37									#12
	Re: Colosseums are necessary Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk RJM Cities can not work more than three citizens without colosseums, making Xinning a faint hope. Monk

My experience is based on early landing games with a smaller number of cities, so it may not apply here but ...

a temple plus mysticism takes you to size 3; the fourth citizen can be an entertainer and there is usually still a food surplus to get to size 5. At size 5 the unhappiness can be dealt with by 2 scientists or 2 taxmen. Alternatively at size 5 you can xin. Xinning is tedious for our noble leader, particularly if the city goes into disorder when adding to the food box. It involves a lot of micro-management. The result of all this is more science (or tax), but less shields. The reduced number of shields is compensated for by more rush building and we get a bigger bonus from van delivery because we can switch 5 citizens to trade tiles.

I think that in our current situation we need to play catch-up in science. In due course, we will need more production muscle, but at the moment I think beakers are more important than shields. Once we are strong enough to start taking AI cities we can stop all the fancy Dan stuff and simply kick sand in there face. Are we ready for that yet?

RJM at Sleeper's

	15-06-2004 10:51									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The hinge of this plan is trading, it would seem. Who are we to trade with and from what cities?? Sparrowhawk has mentioned some trade testing that showed no benifit from intra-continent trade with Egypt.

Monk

	15-06-2004 11:09									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk The hinge of this plan is trading, it would seem. Who are we to trade with and from what cities?? Sparrowhawk has mentioned some trade testing that showed no benifit from intra-continent trade with Egypt. Monk

This isn't a plan. I voted for and support what you describe as the consensus. I support building temples and colosseums as needed. I suspect that if I were our noble leader, I would regard a colosseum as needed a bit later than you would.

BTW I don't think Sparrowhawk showed that there was no benefit from trading with Egypt. You always get some bonus gold and beakers and until a city has 3 trade routes you (probably) get some extra trade arrows. The questions are how much you can afford to spend rushing the van and which city gives you the best return to trade with - particularly remembering that sometimes a small trade bonus is acceptable if it can be used to unblock something in a larger city.

RJM at Sleeper's

	15-06-2004 11:11									#15
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I believe the bonus mentioned was 40g/beakers. Not much for a 50 shield investment; a real loser if the camel was rushed.

Monk

	15-06-2004 11:31									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk I believe the bonus mentioned was 40g/beakers. Not much for a 50 shield investment; a real loser if the camel was rushed. Monk

I agree that I wouldn't want to spend too much money rushing a van that was only going to yield 40 gold and 40 beakers. However in one of your five shield cities we could complete a line of shields 4 times (thus getting our money back) and pick up the extra 40 beakers for "nothing" every 6 turns.

How bad the return on 50 shields is depends on what else we can do with them. If we don't spend any money rushing, 80 gold every 10 turns (from 2 vans) would allow us to reduce taxes by 10% and hence increase science by the same amount (IIRC).

Until we are ready to go to war, we need to consider whether we are willing to accept the extra support costs of building units.

RJM at Sleeper's

	15-06-2004 22:27									#17
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"Until we are ready to go to war," I think we are best served pumping out Settlers to increase our city numbers and, eventually, road building to connect up the colony. A boat--from somewhere--should be sent through the canal to explore the coast to the S and E of Panama, as well.

It seems to me the first priority now is # of cities and growing those cities in size. Later, when the cities are bigger, AND, we have discovered suitable trade partners, camels may be very useful.

Monk

	16-06-2004 11:37									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk "Until we are ready to go to war," I think we are best served pumping out Settlers to increase our city numbers and, eventually, road building to connect up the colony. A boat--from somewhere--should be sent through the canal to explore the coast to the S and E of Panama, as well. It seems to me the first priority now is # of cities and growing those cities in size. Later, when the cities are bigger, AND, we have discovered suitable trade partners, camels may be very useful. Monk

The crucial question seems to be "are we ready for war now", and if not "what stands in our way"? I think that the size and production capacity of our empire is already sufficient to begin a war. If the generals (well the minister of war and our noble leader) are confident that we can take and hold our first city with crusaders then let's increase the number of our cities by capturing them.

RJM at Sleeper's

	16-06-2004 22:59									#19
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* Sparrowhawk , Minister of War (exuding the confidence that RJM refers to above!!)

	17-06-2004 00:31									#20
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quote: Originally posted by rjmatsleepers I think that the size and production capacity of our empire is already sufficient to begin a war. RJM at Sleeper's

Oh yeah, with a great roar our cats will scare the AI to death!!

Monk

	17-06-2004 06:58									#21
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Our one large Capital and our few size 2-3 cities are not going to pump out Crusaders sufficient to take on the world. We don't even have barracks in the colonies. We can't build Crusaders yet, and we can't make them Vets yet.

While we don't want to waste the time remaining to us, we also can't do much without preparing somewhat for attacking.

	17-06-2004 08:49									#22
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quote: Originally posted by cavebear Our one large Capital and our few size 2-3 cities are not going to pump out Crusaders sufficient to take on the world. We don't even have barracks in the colonies. We can't build Crusaders yet, and we can't make them Vets yet. While we don't want to waste the time remaining to us, we also can't do much without preparing somewhat for attacking.

I would say, our best way to prepare is to increase the # of cities and grow them, link them with roads so we can quickly assemble, build barracks, build a few horses/warriors for martial law, and revolt to Monarchy at the last, making an Army capable of sustained field action.

Monk

	17-06-2004 12:23									#23
	Increase Your PM Length

OK so we are willing to go to war with veteran crusaders and pick off a few cities without walls. The consensus (well Monk and Cavebear) is for more cities of our own and greater production before we begin a war.

Once we discover monotheism do we switch to 0% research in order to rush build? Has the roaringly valliant Sparrowhawk decided how many crusaders we need and which city is our first target?

(BTW do we simply sneak attack or do we preserve our reputation by getting the AI to declare war?)

RJM at Sleeper's

	17-06-2004 12:42									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Well, there you go again. Actually, and the poll is at the top of this thread, 4 of the 7 voters are for the Consensus Plan.

Also, and I don't mean to pile it on, but, the Rules for this game (in a topped thread, BTW) require a spotless reputation. So, no; sneak attacks are out. But, never fear, any contact with a hostile or icy civ will get a War declaration from them.

Monk

	17-06-2004 16:28									#25
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Yes, we should be able to get Egypt to declare war on us when we are ready for it. Considering that one of our concerns is avoiding civs so they *won't* declare war, it would be truly ironic if we couldn't cause one to do so when we wanted them too.

	17-06-2004 17:26									#26
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Sorry - another poll I missed... Will try to look at all of these I missed (in case it makes any difference) in about 24 hours, but just no time now.

	17-06-2004 22:09									#27
	Support Apolyton

MrWhereItsAt,

As Foreign Minister do you think you could do some polling after we get the new turnset Friday-Sunday?? If not a poll, at least please sponsor some discussion about foreign contact issues that we face.

Possible areas for discussion...who to contact, when, and in what order; whether to seek an alliance at some cost in coin; whether we can expect tech gifts from such an alliance; the liklihood that any contacts will produce anything but War due to the game-time.

These are things cavebear needs some guidance about, if I understand this Demo Game process correctly.

Thanks for your attention....

Monk

	18-06-2004 05:23									#28
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* Sparrowhawk would be most pleased if MWIA posted as Bloody Monk suggest (but then I don't think I need to tell anyone that.....given my oft posted opinion on contacting the AI)