13-06-2004 05:54									#1
	Fending off planet Remove this text

I've probably posted this somewhere, but I can't find it so let's just say that we're doing a "Fighting Off Planet" revisted thread...



Late ingame, I'm finding it harder and harder to fight off planet. When fungal blooms happen, they tend to unleash dozens upon dozens of worms, spore launchers, and locusts at me. I'm talking about 20+ per new fungal tile. I've tried the artillery tactic, the psi-garrison tactic, choppers, and the like, but nothing seems to work for me. On the off-chance that I do destroy the fungal hordes, I rake in mad EC's but I'm finding my tactics aren't adequate enough to destroy Planet.

Does anyone have any advice on how I can teach Planet to bow before me?

	13-06-2004 07:20									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

OK, I'll give this a go. Comments/corrections appreciated.

First, since you're an experienced player, I assume you already know how to prevent ecodamage. For some reason you're still getting >pops<.

I suggest not using choppers (even with Empath) against the native hoards. A chopper can take out only one unit per attack. Better to go with land-based units. They destroy (or capture) an entire stack with one attack. Build Empath rovers (with 6-res weapons, if available). Build roads/mag tubes in every base square so the rovers use as few movement points as possible. Arm some of the rovers with SAM so they can attack the locusts. Empath artillery are also useful to soften up the native life forms.

It's been a long time since I had to deal with this, but I seem to recall that another possible defence is to station units in the squares within your base radius but outside your base. That way, even is you get a >pop<, native life forms won't appear in a square containing one of your units. Can anyone confirm whether or not that tactic actually works?

Finally, station a couple (dozen) of 3-res trance units in the base in case all else fails.

Last edited by Petek on 13-06-2004 at 07:45

	13-06-2004 07:41									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

You should not confront Planet as an enemy. Build those darn treefarms and centauri preserves and get that ecodamage under control mate

I don't think it's really possible to fight off a properly enraged planet (like dozens of bases all with ED's in the 50's and fungus everywhere...), you have to find a comprimise between ED levels and minerals (or better yet, just build/sell CPreserves's). Run Green/Cybernetic, get the SP's that reduce ED globally, I think that goes without saying.

Military Tatics:
* SAM Artillery is one of the few things capable of wrecking locusts, you'll need about 3 volleys from chaos+ artillery to wipe out a stack of locusts.

* Self Destruct, any fusion laser/fusion reactor or better unit or missile will do the trick, choppers work quite well, you can "chop" your way into the middle of a group of worms than kaboom. One of the few good locust crowd-control methods, and incredibly economical, you'd lose easily 10 choppers killing a locust stack for normal way - Self Destruct is a nearly essential tatic in dealing with big worm outbreaks.

* It's really useful to have a magtube network and/or the nano factory to speed up repairs. Ideally you'll send a hovertank along the magtube, wipe out worms until it (almost) runs out of moves, then shuttle it to a monolith. Next turn it's ready to go again. If it runs out of moves then the next turn it can be sent to a base - if it spends it's entire turn moving on magtubes it will still get the instant repair from CC's. So avoid fighting off magtubes (use choppers to kill those worms instead).

* Mass produce cheap empath rovers/tanks to kill stacks - if your actively intending to do some pearl collection then it helps to garrison your bases in advance with these units (and make them clean). Unit gifts/steals from the AI are also useful to throw at worms. Empath and/or Trance artillery can also be useful to have around, but unfortunately cannot be made clean unless based on ships.

* Never defend. If your on the defensive - it's too late, planets giant stacks will wipe you out - you must kill the mega-stacks at any costs (sacrifice units if nessecary). But if you have to defend, it pays to note that air units make the best PSI defenders, because they always fight 1:1 on defense, rather than 2:3, combined with base, sensor, trance this makes for some mean odds.

	13-06-2004 12:08									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Everyone else has already handed out the best advice, particularly about SAM artillery, so I'll just supplement:

Don't build infantry garrisons -- infantry is for attacking bases. Rovers usually cost the same or only slightly more, yet their doubled speed makes them more than twice as useful. Hovers are better still, and again usually cost the same.

Remember that with better reactors and 8r armor your trance defenders can get 6r weaponry at no additional charge. (The 8r armor is way higher-level than the 6r weapon, so trance remains a freebie.) All those boring old garrisons suddenly have teeth!

When your entire defensive force is also a potent attacking force it takes a mighty planetary rage indeed to overwhelm you. I don't even put empath on them, nor do I build land-based artillery. The 25% res bonus and sheer numbers have always been sufficient. (Note that if you ecodamage >99 you absolutely must have SAM artillery!)

If you're overwhelmed remember the fungal pops are ALWAYS of the form "a bunch of units in the popped square, 1 unit in all adjacent fungal squares." If your attack force is limited hit the big stacks first, and like Blake said use whatever means you must.

Build sensors, preferably in your bases. This requires you build the sensor before the base.

When building magtubes concentrate first on connecting all bases in as few builds as possible, then start worrying about areas that would be inaccessible if they were hit with a fungal pop.

Ships are an incredibly versatile resource, and my favorite form of artillery. I know artillery is the uber-countermeasure, but I don't even build it except in the form of ships.

For the cost of 9 rows, you can build a (6e)r-8tr-6*3 Cruiser, or a "Calypso" as I call it.

The res and empath attack give it the punch to take out even big fat enraged IoD's, as well as deliver a respectable artillery barrage onto land or sea.

Its defenses are equally formidable: combining res and trance make for a very tough nut to crack. It can attack an IoD adjacent to another and survive the second's counterattack. Sail it into a base and that base is very well accounted-for, even if the Calypso suffers some damage attacking an adjacent IoD or locust.

	13-06-2004 13:40									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Thanks guys. I know of some of the ecodamage tricks. I don't like to buy/sell Centauri Preserves because it feels like I'm doing an exploit. I don't know why, but it feels like I'm cheating in a way.

My latest tactic was to do the Sensor, Psi-Infantry tactic to get rid of those monster boils, and they work every once in a while. I also don't tend to cover my tiles in road networks because of previous debacles...but maybe I should try and revist them....

Petek-thanks for the advice. Yeah, I've learned not to use choppers, but I was getting desperate to fend off those boils. I've used your tactic of filling the tiles with units and it works to some extent. Thanks.

Blake-Right on. I don't really use self destruct....but how you describe it, it sounds feasible. I tend to use my units until they are wiped out...fight to the end and all. I'll try your tactic to see how it works.

Santiago-Hmmm, I never thought about establishing a base with a sensor! Damn, I've learned something new!

	13-06-2004 23:25									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The best defender against locusts:
res armor (3r or 8r) (+25%)
trance (+50%)
AAA (+100%)
land chassis (3:2 basic odds, instead of 2:1 air vs ship in base or 1:1 air vs air, but that would cost AAA)
near a sensor (+25%)
in a base (+25%)
with a children's creche, giving Elite morale or better (+50% or more)
with the Neural Amp (+50%)

Comes to about 1:8.8 odds for the attacker against a pre-boil locust, or (more likely) 1:5.9 against a demon boil locust.

Against mind worms you should be able to explode them with scout empath hovertanks or artillery you didn't use against the locusts. Against isles just use more artillery and empath foils. You should be able to destroy any concentrations of land and sea native life, though with artillery even locusts should die before attacking.

	14-06-2004 03:05									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

Sensors are important enough to cover with a supply crawler -- preferably armored -- if the sensor isn't on a base.

	14-06-2004 04:21									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Hmmm, I have read all of you're incredible ideas, and now I have concluded that the best way to defeat mindworms is to use Planet busters, lots and lots of planet busters...

	14-06-2004 04:56									#9
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Like Daffy Duck smacking himself on the head with a sledgehammer in trying to swat a fly, eh, Commy?

	14-06-2004 07:53									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The best thing to do is get a 3+ planet rating a build the Manifold Harmonics, then taraform everything to fungus so you don't get >pop

	14-06-2004 13:36									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

Another little tip, mostly for gaians or cult, is to not level rocky tiles, fungus them over and station worms/locusts on them. The fungus makes the worms clean. Pops always prefer to happen next to existing fungus so your worm guards will be in exactly the right place. And worms tend to be ignored by planet worms, so they are pretty safe too.

	15-06-2004 01:03									#12
	Support Apolyton

As dumb as it sounds, if it's late in the game you should try your darndest to Transcend as quickly as possible once Planet starts going nuts. I know that by the time I reach the "holy crap worms" phase, I'm usually not far from the Ascent, so I just focus on damage control to a point and go for the gold in a base that's not getting worm-rushed. Best advice I can offer.

	15-06-2004 01:59									#13
	Remove this text

Wow, Blake, that's brilliant! All those fungal patches on rocky tiles (or under Echelon Mirrors) are perfect places to station "native defenders".

Nakar, your suggestion has merit: when you build VoP fungal pops cease to cause native life forms to erupt AND global warming no longer occurs. Of course your days are numbered, because other factions are then allowed to build A to T ... and the "hurry cost" of everything is doubled.

	15-06-2004 04:10									#14
	Empath GOOD! Fungus BAD! Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This may seem like a "duh" statement, but clear out ALL the fungus in a three square radius. Any existing fungus can spawn more natives. Ok, now I know you are saying "well duh", but there is a method to the dullness.
The fungus pops in a predictable pattern. If you have removed ALL of the fungus around your town the first place the fungus pops, will always be the first place the fungus pops. After a pop, send in an empath tank/rover (keep a minimum of 2-4 in rotation) to harvest your free ecs. Then send in enough formers to clean up the popped fungus in the same turn. If you run a mag tube to the pop site this is even easier. You can then control the pops and learn their pattern.
I need to run some tests to fully flesh this all out, but these are my observations.

	15-06-2004 16:02									#15
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Since by late game you've totally over-powered the AI 99% of the time and most bases can produce everything in 1 turn, why not just have a few high min bases constantly pumping out cheap 1-1-1--empath-clean(or if you've got the +2 support sp dont bother) and 1-3r-1-trance-AAA troops and with your magtubes you'll butcher em when they appear ??
If you're coastal bases are sky high min wise then some cheap empath cruisers aswell. Personally i like it when planet gets mad at me, a few controlled pops nets you a nice cash bonus and its payback for that worm destroying my 3rd colony pod early in the game

Never let planet stand before the communal utopia !!!

	15-06-2004 23:33									#16
	Remove this text

Much of that doesn't apply for those of us with SMAC instead of SMAX. I usually don't build the mineral facilities since it's easier to build simple units and upgrade them. That means I usually don't have problems with >pops< however late in the game.

	16-06-2004 05:14									#17
	Get a bigger avatar today!

The only thing that doesn't apply for SMAC is res weapons/armor (which is so expensive that it's no huge benefit). Otherwise the clean mineral strategies are even stronger, because SMACs tech to Hybrid Forests and Genejacks are a bit shorter and you don't have to deal with fungal towers or spore launchers.

	16-06-2004 09:38									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Most games I play, the mindworms are bound to kill me, and when I know the base is going to die to mindworms, I'll just save the game, activate the scenario editor, and planet bust those little pests. Yeah, the base is gone in the explosion, but it was going to die anyway, and it's more fun...

And why, might I ask you, livid imp, would any creature, even a duck, hit himself with a sledgehammer? Better yet, why would anyone want to hurt a fly? I mean, come on people, what did the critter ever do to you? (Besides being an annoying pesk that is just asking for it?)

	17-06-2004 00:47									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Lazerus Since by late game you've totally over-powered the AI 99% of the time and most bases can produce everything in 1 turn, why not just have a few high min bases constantly pumping out cheap 1-1-1--empath-clean(or if you've got the +2 support sp dont bother) and 1-3r-1-trance-AAA troops and with your magtubes you'll butcher em when they appear ?? If you're coastal bases are sky high min wise then some cheap empath cruisers aswell. Personally i like it when planet gets mad at me, a few controlled pops nets you a nice cash bonus and its payback for that worm destroying my 3rd colony pod early in the game Never let planet stand before the communal utopia !!!

And Lazerus, once again, speaks the truth.

	17-06-2004 13:39									#20
	Got spare money?

Fungal towers have popped under my Crawlers for aeons now, and the only way to not lose my Crawler while taking care of it is to right-click on the square and select the Crawler from the row of units. Curiously, other native life has not popped beneath my Crawlers, only towers.

	18-06-2004 22:25									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Commy And why, might I ask you, livid imp, would any creature, even a duck, hit himself with a sledgehammer?

**Livid Imp smacks Commy with a duck**
Check your quotes before you give the wrong person hell

quote: Originally posted by Santiago_Claus Like Daffy Duck smacking himself on the head with a sledgehammer in trying to swat a fly, eh, Commy?

	18-06-2004 22:30									#22
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by anarchie Fungal towers have popped under my Crawlers for aeons now, and the only way to not lose my Crawler while taking care of it is to right-click on the square and select the Crawler from the row of units. Curiously, other native life has not popped beneath my Crawlers, only towers.

You are right . .. happens all thetime

	19-06-2004 05:34									#23
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Commy:

Nuking oneself to rid ones lands of enemies is like unto Daffy Duck hitting himself with a sledgehammer to swat a fly.

Blake:

Res too expensive? I put that stuff on just about everything. Come on, it's not THAT bad.

	19-06-2004 07:31									#24
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Notice that I said "save game and activate scenario editor" which implies I am doing it for fun and will come back and fight like a man later. Well, maybe not, but the point is, it isn't for real, only for fun. So maybe I nuke my bases, but at least it's fun. Sid Meier would be proud...

	19-06-2004 07:59									#25
	Inflate your Upload Space

The benefit/cost for res armor is pretty neutral. When it's worm defenders you want, a 1-1t-1'clean is going to do a almost a good a job as a 1-3t-1'clean, at half the cost. Same deal for rovers.

The main advantage of res armor/weapon is the added flexibility - but when planet is your primary enemy it gives no real benefit over building cheaper units. So your right that it's not expensive - compared to conventional weapons/armor, but it's hell expensive compared to no weapon/armor.

Res weapon is good for artillery to beat spore launchers, but no spore launchers in smac

	21-06-2004 02:36									#26
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Wait wait wait....you guys call ME sadistic? When there's Commy who'll Planet Buster one of his bases just to get rid of mindworms?

Now that is sadistic.

	21-06-2004 09:00									#27
	Get a bigger avatar today!

No, using nervegas on choppers to gas the mindworms one by friggin' one is sadistic.
The gas just makes more ecodamage, and eventually you get that nice sinking feeling.

	21-06-2004 09:45									#28
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova No, using nervegas on choppers to gas the mindworms one by friggin' one is sadistic. The gas just makes more ecodamage, and eventually you get that nice sinking feeling.

Nerve gas has no effect against native life- In my experience you don't even get the pop-up giving you the choice to use it or not

	21-06-2004 10:17									#29
	Suffering from ads?

Geez, it works against an alien race with biotechnology and hospitals and adaptive resonance but it doesn't work against some measely worms?

Go figure.

	21-06-2004 18:36									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova Geez, it works against an alien race with biotechnology and hospitals and adaptive resonance but it doesn't work against some measely worms? Go figure.

I'm sure some biology type can tell us if it makes sense (perhaps less developed nervous systems are less susceptible??) but thats the way the game is.

besides logic with these games went out the window long ago-- remember when a phlanx managed to shoot down a bomber??