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Enigma_Nova
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Yeah, and BT's the resident anti-Engima troll
* Enigma_Nova pays the bridge fee
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CEO Aaron
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Everything has its price. Even you.
Aug 2002
time: 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by MoNoLitH
CEO Aaron, I don't play MP, therefore any valid comparisons must assume computers at the controls in my case. 
I think we've gone way off topic here. The focus was not on whether sea or land is better.
These forums can burn in hell. I have better things to do than get flamed by children with too much time on their hands. Good day. |
Ah, where to begin? Monolith, if you didn't want people's feedback on your factional and strategic choices, WHY ON EARTH did you open a post about it? If you're content to 'play for fun', please unplug the network cable from the back of your computer, and you can go on being a mediocre player until the end of your benighted days.
I was under the impression that your post was aimed at getting feedback about your strategies and game habits, and all of my posts were geared toward providing meaningful feedback on that topic. As it happens, I feel that the faction you chose makes you complacent and slows your development, and took pains to explain why. When others disagreed with me, I did my best to refute their arguments. Is there any other way civilized discourse is supposed to work?
Finally, at no prior point during this thread were you flamed, certainly not by me. A flaming would look like this: You're a pathetic player who barely grasps the most rudimentary concepts of strategy who came here looking to have his fragile ego stroked by a load of slack-jawed onlookers. When you were instead showed the truth behind your mediocrity, you lashed out, ignoring the constructive feedback and meaningful discourse your thread provoked, and instead stuck your head in the sand, insulting this forum and its members, who were legitimately trying to offer advice that would help you. But don't think that makes you special, we get one of you around here every few months. Oh, and one more thing: Just because my posts are large and spelled correctly doesn't mean I spent as much time on them than you might have, just like I can close up a Librarian game of Alpha Centauri in under 400 turns.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by obstructor
Has anyone considered the fact that he is doing this on purpose? I mean 400 turns to win without any modifications to game mechanisms and he has a poll option: "Yea, hail MoNoLitH, AC conqueror!" |
Possibly but I know when I discovered this place I was playing CIV II and I thought I ws oh so fabulous since I could beat it regularly on emporer and bought into the manual claims that deity was almost impossible. But I knew enough to read a lot before posting and learned a lot pretty quickly and was winning deity regularly before my attention switched to AC.
My point is that it is possible he thought he is great. Its possible he was trolling for responses-- generally I don't care and just respond to people as if their post means what it says
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smacksim
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Deputy Chairman of the Council of Lords of Gaia
Feb 2004
time: 00:36
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It must be FIRE WEEK at Apolyton. I just put some roasty coals under Enigma in another thread. What's gotten into us all? Hehe......
Will there also be a Fire Sale? Hmm....
Having not flipped back to page 1 yet to see the supposed original flaming meat , although I had been lurking on the thread previously, I add one more perspective to Monolith's over-reaction. Perhaps he's just in a foul mood and needed some lifting up? Then he read his thread and found that, well, it's not all roses if you ask for honesty  . I'll bet he comes back and reads and thinks 'Well, harumph! Maybe I should try this ICSing thing and X and Y and Z' and before you know it, he'll be trolling the threads looking for newbies to help , er, impress.... After all, not all were as wise as Flubber in biting our tongues until we'd really learned everything we could before venturing an opinion.
My vote: Monolith, you will be great if you listen to Yoda and Ceo Aaron, and Flubber, and, well, all the bright bulbs at Apolyton. Don't be put off by us. It's just that it's FIRE WEEK .
-Smack
-Smack
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Santiago_Claus
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No good deed goes unpunished, it would seem.
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:36
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All that said, there *are* many virtues to playing the Pirates, and among them are:
* The ability to be "in the driver's seat" in the early game....being the first faction to have contact with the rest is a HUGE boon that cannot be understated, and as Sven, there's no reason this should not be you.
* Sea bases = LOTS of energy. Very easy to reach pre-restriction lifting caps with minimal sea forming effort. Even better, your terraforming is "do it once and forget" cos as restrictions ease off, the already-in-place terraforming gets better with no added input (or former time) from you.
* Ability to find and cherry pick juicy landmarks much more quickly than anybody else (rover = 2 moves, foil = 4 moves...no matter how you slice it, you're moving MUCH more quickly into the great unknown).
* Ability to quickly and easily expand to any part of Chiron. You start at sea, but you don't have to stay there, and in fact, building a core set of landward bases is always a good move. Fortunately, thanks to your many advantages, finding suitable ground that's well away from the competition is easy to do.
* Your negatives are not paralyzing. Effie is easy to overcome (build one base facility and you're there). Growth...who cares! So you can't do an "easy" pop boom....well, if there's one thing sea bases DON'T have a shortage of, it's food!
* First person who has a fleet can make it frustratingly hard for anybody else to GET one, if they put their minds to it.
* Your abilities get cooler as the game progresses. Nahhh, they're not game breakers, but they're very interesting to play!
Having said that, no....I do not believe the Pirates are a "killer faction" - however, they, like any other faction in the game, can be a powerhouse. It's all in how you use what you got! 
-=Vel=-
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Enigma_Nova
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Sorry vel, flaming spam has erupted on this thread.
No faction, regardless of how PWNDAGE they are, could possibly stop this momentum flame.
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Commy
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St. Louis, MO, USA
Mar 2004
time: 05:36
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Ah, well, I bet it's time I confess...
I SUCK!!!!!
(not that you didn't already know that)
Okay, so now you all know that I am never here to impress anyone.
And, might I ask, does EVERYBODY have enigma_nova on their ignore list? Cause I suddenly feel like I'm the only stupid person around here who doesn't. I mean, I was personally flamed by the guy (took up half the thread), but I think it's very interesting to read his posts, even if they aren't exactly...constructive...shall we say?
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:36
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Quite so, EN...quite so, but I'll give it a go in any case...LOL
True, the Pirate advantages cannot be measured by the normal accounting methods in-game (ie - raw mineral costs).
There's some of that, yes, but it can only take you so far.
Mineral for mineral, sea pods are a good investment. A bit slow on the uptake, it's true, but from turn one, you get the benefits of that built-in recycling tank (a thing you do not get from landward pods), and this does much to offset the general slowdown of development.
It's the harder-to-quantify advantages though, that make the Pirates a true gem. Unique starting position and expansion paradigm, and their ability to control contacts through the early game are simply ferociously strong abilities. By no means are they overpowered, but let's face it, without the hit to growth, the Pirates would be nigh on unstoppable given their starting parameters (ie, if you tossed an easy boom into the mix...crikey!)
Also, with pod scattering on, the pirates don't *need* industry bonuses or freebie facilities...they'll be swimming in cash, AA's and insta-builds thanks to rampant pod popping on "Chiron's Largest Continent" and this (while hard to quanitfy, 'tis true), is simply an amazing advantage.
Add Green (easy to get to) and you got a faction that need not fear the worms, can keep growth under control--sea bases grow like weeds, and is swimming in energy. With ten mins to work with in a base--also easy to get to--and the kind of cash the Pirates can rake in, just rush everything you need til the coastal boreholes are ready...
-=Vel=-
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Capt Dizle
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Vel, can you honestly say that you would pick the Pirates to play in a 1v1 deathmatch against any of the original factions?
..the gamer formerly known as Lt. Col. jimmytrick
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Straybow
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SG(2)… gone but not forgotten
Jan 1970
time: 23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by MoNoLitH:
These forums can burn in hell. I have better things to do than get flamed by children with too much time on their hands. Good day. |
 Yeah, well, c'est le vie. What other fun can we have if we can't bait the trolls?
Verbal battle with Aaron aside, I use the changes I posted as much for a challenge for myself as any other reason. Perhaps you've never experimented with alterations to alphax.txt, and I thought I'd feed you an idea or two.
SMAC on, dude!
quote:
Originally posted by CEO Aaron:
The cost of the pressure dome isn't the upkeep, its the other things you can be doing with the time and minerals you spend building it. |
Maybe you missed the point. The Sea Colony in effect doesn't pay for it, or the dome is paid for and the other advantages of the Sea Colony are free.
quote:
You're actually building fusion colony pods? |
Are you saying that when Fusion comes you don't upgrade Sea Colony pods and pay 7 rows for the Fission model?
quote:
Furthermore, every other unit those seabasese will build will also cost 50% more, or be trapped inside the seabase. |
I never saw this penalty you cite show up in unit costs. I also have never had problems moving land units in and out of sea bases with transports.
quote:
And the 'you can't invade without boats' defense is entirely irrelevant when your enemies have Doctrine:Air Power and are picking off your empire one by one. |
Is Sven barred from building interceptors? If so this would certainly be a significant drawback.
quote:
Any discussion of the relative merits of a faction MUST be made with the assumption that humans are at the controls, and that the competition is real. |
I was unaware of this rule. Maybe you should PM Vel and have him put that in the FAQ.
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Enigma_Nova
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quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
Quite so, EN...quite so, but I'll give it a go in any case...LOL |
* Enigma_Nova rests a hand on Velociryx's shoulder
"There are some battles you just can't win. It's best to let it go and beat them down in games of SMAC, than trying to beat them at their own flames."
quote:
A bit slow on the uptake, it's true, but from turn one, you get the benefits of that built-in recycling tank (a thing you do not get from landward pods), and this does much to offset the general slowdown of development. |
Yeah... about that
The faster you get one pod up, the faster you get the next pod up.
Point taken, SeaCpods can get to their destination without the formers around, but once the base is up, you're sitting in a crapload of 1-1-0 squares.
You need formers, and unlike in land bases, it takes a bit of ECwork to rush them to completion.
Afterwards, the sea equivalent of forest (kelp) gets you no mins and no energy, while the mins/energy enhancements take longer to build.
You're going to need 1.5x the number of formers, and thus spend 3x the number of minerals. Where are you going to pull those out of, I ask?
Pirates rely on scattered pods and resources, so you have 1-3-0 squares and 3-1-0 squares to work, and mineral pods to get those formers.
For those, you need Gun foils exploring.
With 1.5x the formers, and probably the same amount of scouts, you're paying a little more support than average in bases that produce a little less mins than average - even with the Tanx.
It's a disasterous cumulative effect, so watch it carefully.
quote:
Unique starting position and expansion paradigm, and their ability to control contacts through the early game are simply ferociously strong abilities. |
Well yeah, there's that - but there's something a little odd to me about playing a sea faction just so that you can lurch onto the monsoon jungle and the Manifold Nexus.
As for the other factions, you have to find them first. If the EG is in the game, the Pirates better get it or their main advantage is lost!
If the Pirates get the EG in a game with islands and oceans, expect everyone else to be PWND. The problem is getting that EG when you've got less mins and expensive crawlers.
Use AAs? Well, you'll need Transports to get AAs, unlike land players who can simply walk the AA back to base.
Transports are more expensive than Rovers, which can pop the same number of AAs. Plus, Rovers don't get as eaten by Natives.
quote:
with pod scattering on, the pirates don't *need* industry bonuses or freebie facilities... |
True, and OCCs prove you don't *need* Cpods.
Fact remains, it's nice to have a few new bases around.
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Sikander
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Boulder, Colorado, United Snakes of America
Jan 2000
time: 22:36
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Well one thing no one has mentioned so far is that playing the Pirates can be quite fun. More than any other faction I think, you have to rethink your normal way of doing things. As most of us have played a lot of SMAC, the Pirates can be a breath of fresh air assuming you haven't already played them to death as well.
Regarding the sea colony pods. One small advantage of them is that instead of your weak new base having to build recycling tanks, your larger more developed base does it.
Regarding formers, I find that the sea forming takes less time than land forming. Forest and forget is cheaper in former time than kelp and tidal harnesses, but any other style of forming is more time intensive on land. Thus I find that I build fewer sea formers for Pirate sea bases than I do land formers for land bases. That said, sea formers are pricey early on and so you lose turn advantage waiting for them to complete. But all in all it isn't that much of a disadvantage. By the time the enhancing facilities are built the Pirates produce a lovely 4-1-4 on shelf tiles, which is hard to beat for the former time involved.
My typical (it's been over a year since I've played the Pirates so bear with me) Pirate start is to build foil transports in both bases, and then build scout garrisons, and then sea formers. At the end of this procedure I have the same number of minerals in my base as anyone who hasn't yet built a recycling tank (assuming they don't go over their support limit as well), and more food and energy. While all this is going on my gun foil and then my transports have been scouting the area for pods and suitable landing spots for new bases. The pods are going to help me build expensive things, give me money, techs and AAs to build an early SP or two.
Once my bases have completed their units, it's time for them to build some good old cheap land lubber colony pods. The transports will carry them to any nice looking base sites I've uncovered with my scouting, hopefully on landmasses that are at least partially within the production radius of my initial sea bases. These bases will be able to spare a little former time to throw some forests up in order to bolster the mineral production of my two sea bases, just as the sea formers of the initial bases will be able to help out the land bases with some kelp and tidals.
I tend to build almost exclusively on land, though mostly on the coast to take advantage of the Pirates shelf productivity. If I've got a huge landmass to work with, the Pirates are a great candidate for a specialist strategy in the interior, as this negates their inefficiency energy vulnerablity. They can run any SE choices they like which is handy too. Pop booming can be a real pain though, which is why I really suggest buying the HGP with your early AAs. Second in importance early is (IMO) the WP in order to make the most of your sea formers / minimize your support costs.
The Pirates are not much worse then other factions for defense if they go to land, and they start with ships and rovers. This is good, as the Pirates need to patrol more than other factions in order to protect their sea bases (especially). As I play them they can't "turtle" their land bases either, as I use the shelf to produce a lot of food and energy. This means that eventually I'm going to need a couple of ships to cover the spaces between my sensors more often than not, though this isn't an immediate problem in SP.
The biggest negatives with the Pirates as I see them are that they rely on fortune more than most other factions. Pod Lotto and tech broker can both come up empty with a bit of bad luck, and if this happens then you may regret your slower start. I'm sure they are a weak faction in MP, but they are fun to play in SP.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
Not so. I haven't read any strats for the pirates, but I knew they'd be unbeatable in You Think You Know Everything (sig).
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I never accept that any faction is unbeatable. If faced with a surging faction, all the other humans co-operate either by a joint attack or tech-sharing to get to key techs and gain key special projects. The "leader" may still win but its tougher when maintaining a tech advantage is near impossible and your trade income is much less than those arrayed against your dominance.
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Flubber
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With a view of the Rockies
Aug 2000
time: 22:36
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The pirates to me are an "ok" faction. Seabases are far too vulnerable for my liking and the planned move to land can be painful if the geography is unco-operative (ie large nearby landmasses with hostile neighbors)
They are a fun game to play though since you can get meeting people really early and get a greta sense of the map so as to plan your expansion. My assessment
Overpowered or strong ?? Not really
Playable ? Usually
Fun? Absolutely
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Santiago_Claus
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If you beeline to IA can't you get minerals from land-based forests?
For that matter Nautilus mining platforms produce 2 minerals, too, although trawlers pre-fusion are expensive.
Lastly the poles on random maps are almost always solid rock, giving the enterprising pirate what would seem a limitless supply of metal once restrictions were lifted.
I've never played Pirates, so I don't really know what I'm talking about, but "beeline to IA" as a mineral-garnering strategy works pretty well on land. Why wouldn't it work at sea?
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Santiago_Claus
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Hey, don't Pirate mining platforms produce 2 minerals from the get-go?
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17-06-2004 21:00
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