19-06-2004 07:34									#61
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Perhaps with all the energy, the pirates could just hurry units and not have to worry about minerals. But still, it's a problem...

	21-06-2004 05:01									#62
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If you take my advice on going to land as early as possible you won't have that many sea bases to worry about. (Often I only build two via my initial sea colony pods.) The land bases can supply the land formers that you need, while the sea bases provide sea formers and those life giving early game transports.

Crawling minerals is effective, but you have a large turn disadvantage with the Pirates doing so from sea bases, as you have to transport your crawlers to suitable prepared terrain rather than running them along roads to their destinations.

I have had some success building Sea bases along the poles as suggested above. With a rocky pole I alternate mines with boreholes and set my bases two apart two tiles north (or south) of the blacked out polar tile. This gives each base 10 minerals in addition to any minerals they get from shelf tiles and base tiles, and makes them immediately viable even without crawlers.

	21-06-2004 08:23									#63
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Apparently Aaron thinks Sven can only build sea colonies and foils, and EN thinks Sven can't drop the Unity Rovers he pops onto the nearest continent to pop pods on land.

	21-06-2004 09:08									#64
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Unity rovers on a continent...
that would be a good idea. It would hurt if you get 3 AAs and didn't have the transportage to get them back, though.

	21-06-2004 17:14									#65
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Pirate shelf mining platforms produce 2 mins, but pirate shelf tiles produce 1 min all by themselves, so the mining platform only adds 1 min.

	21-06-2004 17:22									#66
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A waste of 8 former turns, in other words.

	21-06-2004 18:51									#67
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not mentioning that you can add +2 to those 2 if tech is right..

	21-06-2004 19:11									#68
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By the time Adv Eco Eng comes along, mining platforms might be a good deal, but most of the game is played before this. Subsea trunklines are garbage, since they cost so much to build and maintain. If you can afford to build them, you can afford to build anything and you don't need more minerals.

	21-06-2004 19:17									#69
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Like Genejacks.
Yeah, if you can get a mins bonus on a shelf, stick a mining platform on it, research Adv. eco eng and build a trunkline then you're better off simply lurching onto land and crawling a mine.

	21-06-2004 19:17									#70
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Easy, easy, If you are Pirates, you have loadsa podded ecs, so you can rush somehing easily..

But on the other hand-> if youre pirates and place your bases only in one tight-packed area such as ThermoShallows, you CAN rely only on energy production (from tidal harnesses), but you lose the Pirate's main advantage-> flexibility

Youre packed in an area easy to reach & thus easy to take

If you instead push it on minerals, you can ignore efficency and expand all over the world!

In other words-> it takes very much consideration to decide howto best play pirates..

I often stick em close in Thermoshallows, and thus have to develop a massive defensive force

	21-06-2004 19:26									#71
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Geo shallows are a good place for a Pirate HQ, but you really do need to pull 10 minerals from somewhere - and it probably isn't having a size 14 base.

You can rush the rest as long as you have those ECs... but a few mining platforms (enough to get 10 minerals) can help a lot.
Turn advantage.

	22-06-2004 01:08									#72
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I believe there is a much better way to get minerals: Satellites

Yes, they are not handy early on, a major drawback, but, get the CBA, build ten nessus mining stations, and just wait for your bases to grow to pop ten, which shouldn't be too hard on the sea. Then you don't have to crawl minerals (although it would be nice early on..), don't have to get on land, and can concentrate solely on energy, and therefore can simply hurry everything.

	22-06-2004 03:32									#73
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Satellites ARE the best way to obtain minerals, but they're so far into the tech tree that the outcome of the game is all but assured by the time you see any.

	22-06-2004 03:37									#74
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quote: Originally posted by CEO Aaron Satellites ARE the best way to obtain minerals, but they're so far into the tech tree that the outcome of the game is all but assured by the time you see any.

I agree completely.

Nessus stations are several techs beyond getting MMI and the CBA . .. by the time I get to the tech, I have several energy and nutrient satellites up such that rushing things get easier and easier even with not great mineral production

	22-06-2004 05:05									#75
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One thing I need to work on is my tech beelines for the Pirates. I started a game as the Pirates last night for the first time in at least a year on Dilithium Dad's Ultimate Builder Map. I started in a nice position near the Dilithium Flats, with plenty of open land, albeit also with an immense amount of fungus that hindered the movement of my ships. Spamming colony pods was very quick, as the extra nutrient that the tanks in the first two bases gives more than makes up for the -1 growth penalty the Pirates suffer in the early game.

I took the former tech first, and then the recycling tank tech. Once I got it I started the HGP (critical for GA pop booming) in my mineral heavy base, while the other base (with a seaborne nutrient special) just kicked out colony pods. I quickly got just past the first bureaucracy limit, before I decided to reign in horizontal growth for a little while as drones were becoming a problem.

I took Info Nets and then Planetary nets next, and by the time I had them I was desperate to get some drone control going, so I hurried the last bit of the HGP and researched Social Psych. I built a couple of probe foils and sent them on their long journey (on this map anyway) to find the other factions. I rushed in a rec commons in my high mineral base and started the VW there as well. As the commons are built I should be able to resume my horizontal expansion, at least up to the second bureau warning. I also researched Ethical Calculus, and after the Rec Commons Children's Creches are going in (a must build if you want to see any of that energy production retained). I probably should have gone with Democracy immediately, but it has only been a few turns since I got the tech, so I haven't wasted all that much yet.

Here's the catch. My tech costs are now getting a bit pricey, yet I haven't even got nutrient restrictions lifted, much less the others. Should I concentrate on lifting restrictions, or beeline to Wealth? Both would be a tremendous boon. It looks like I'm going to have to make the next few techs entirely on my own, as the only AI I've run into so far has been Yang and he took an instant disliking to me and declared Vendetta. I took the opportunity to infiltrate him, but lost 1/2 of my probe fleet in the process. I'll probably be able to slowly (10-15 years at best) get another probe over to borrow some of his tech, but that is nothing I can count on.

I suppose it is best to concentrate on lifting restrictions, as I will see an immense improvement in both energy and food production when I do. FM isn't a great option right now, as it makes deploying any navy difficult and it will only improve my energy production by about 1/3. I'd prefer to run a demo / wealth GA and add in planned as GA pop booming becomes viable even with the massive inefficiency. I'm also short of nutrients (for a boom anyway) in many of my land bases as the kelp hasn't been spread to them via sea former yet, so this will all have to wait for now.

So what would you guys do? Btw, I have only the two sea bases, all the rest are coastal land bases with a decent number of forests, and about 1/2 have some kelp planted. My land bases are almost completely linked by roads now, while the sea bases are both adjacent to the road network and have transports stationed in them to allow shuttling between the land and the base.

	22-06-2004 08:39									#76
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I'd turtle, forget deploying the navy in the short term, and base your tech direction on the amount of terraforming you've done. If you've got the forming for it, go for wealth and crawl your way to greatness. Otherwise, restriction lifting and form in preparation for wealth afterwards.

In either case, market! To get there faster...

-=Vel=-

	22-06-2004 09:06									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx I'd turtle, forget deploying the navy in the short term, and base your tech direction on the amount of terraforming you've done. If you've got the forming for it, go for wealth and crawl your way to greatness. Otherwise, restriction lifting and form in preparation for wealth afterwards. In either case, market! To get there faster... -=Vel=-

Good advice as long as the Yanger doesn't start building a navy. Good thing I infiltrated him. I'll try it and let you know what happens. The only big worry is that the base that the VW is being built in is being kept calm by a Battle Ogre at the moment. I guess I'll just cash that sucker in and hope to get it finished ASAP. Thanks for your response.

Most bases have 1-3 unexploited forest tiles right now, so there is some room for crawlers. Going wealth / crawlers will give me some time to get some kelp planted at the bases further afield for the restrictions lift / pop boom.

	22-06-2004 09:09									#78
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Meh...even if he does, you've only got two sea bases, and even if your military consists of nothing but a couple of prototypes, that's enough to handle anything he might land.

'sides, two sea bases gives you enough of a sea zone to serve as a general ops theater for the navy (I'm assuming they have connecting borders?), so you've got a bit of wiggle room there, and with your techs coming at a good clip, you won't have to do it for long....just enough to get the restrictions lifted, and maybe add wealth, then rock and roll...

-=Vel=-

	22-06-2004 09:23									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Meh...even if he does, you've only got two sea bases, and even if your military consists of nothing but a couple of prototypes, that's enough to handle anything he might land. 'sides, two sea bases gives you enough of a sea zone to serve as a general ops theater for the navy (I'm assuming they have connecting borders?), so you've got a bit of wiggle room there, and with your techs coming at a good clip, you won't have to do it for long....just enough to get the restrictions lifted, and maybe add wealth, then rock and roll... -=Vel=-

Yea they do overlap a bit, and both are supportable by land based units as long as my transports survive. I should move the transports to nearby land bases if I see him coming, so that they don't go down with the last combat unit. I'm going to build a probe foil for home defense / patrolling as well. Perhaps I'll put a little armor on it so that it doesn't automatically get creamed by Yang's laser or impact ships. He's researching impact at the moment.

Hopefully he'll make the typical half-assed AI attack and I can bribe his ships for some weapons tech. All I have right now is synthmetal, and no weapons. Probes are going to have to do the job as has been the case so often in the past. I'll keep them close at hand so that they don't get picked off until I can get a few together and do a bounding overwatch approach to Yang's lands. Then I'm going to go all out for weapon tech parity via probe rape.

I'll be home in about an hour and give it a whirl. I can't wait! This is still a really fun game.

	22-06-2004 15:15									#80
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Looking forward to hearing how it goes!

-=Vel=-

	22-06-2004 16:07									#81
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Which reminds me: MoNoLitH, if you're still watching, you should add ProbeFoil to the list of default units in alphax.txt. Greatly improves the AI's behavior. I've also rarely seen the AI make a rover Former without inserting it as a default unit.

code:
#UNITS
[edit number of units listed]
…
MotorFormer,            Speeder,  Formers,      Scout,      9, 0, 0, EcoEng,  -1, 000000000000000000000000
ProbeFoil,              Foil,     Probe Team,   Scout,     11, 0, 0, IndAuto, -1, 000000000000000000000000

Last edited by Straybow on 22-06-2004 at 16:17

	23-06-2004 10:19									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Velociryx Looking forward to hearing how it goes! -=Vel=-

Just as outlined here. I went Demo, then FM then Wealth and built crawlers, and everyone was about maxed on clean minerals with Commons and Nodes and Creches in place when I cruised through the restrictions and started on my tree farms. Yang was a pussycat, and "donated" several military techs once I got past restrictions (I timed it to keep a good pace on my beeline techs). I didn't get all of the SPs, but I did get all of the most important ones for me and a few others as well.

I also didn't manage to expand all the way to the second bureacracy warning before concentrating on vertical growth, something that was made abundantly clear to me when my genejacks caused a couple of largish native uprisings. I'm used to having enough clean minerals to handle 50+ , but with fewer Tree farms and Hybrid Forests Planet got pissed. Still, it's nothing a few blasts from my ships couldn't handle. I quit after I got the MMI and built the two projects associated with it, with Fusion coming in a couple of turns. At that point I'm unassailable, as long as I keep an eye open for PBs during the short period where they might be launched before my ODPs are in place.

All in all a fun game though. I'd like to play it again and improve on it. I was 20-30 years behind where I'd be in a University game under similarly good conditions. The one thing that hurt me in this game is the insane amount of fungus at sea that prevented me from making much of an early meet and greet effort. By the time I could spare the resources for that I was already running some SE choices that only Morgan or the Peacekeepers would love, and they were located on the other side of the world.

	24-06-2004 03:39									#83
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Actually I have seen the AI build rover formers quite a lot. Especially when you're at a pact with them, and they want to build a road network to connect them to you, assuming, of course, you're far away, but on the same continent...

	24-06-2004 08:06									#84
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* Enigma_Nova requests a screenshot

	24-06-2004 08:26									#85
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I bet you would like a screenshot of the AI crawling, too, wouldn't you? So would we all...

Unfortunately, I had to reinstall my game 4 times after screwing it up trying to get the no-cd crack thing to work. Used the wrong program. Four different wrong programs. Four times of reinstalling the game, crossfire, and all the updates...

Long story short, don't have the save files. Last time it happened was on the standard map of planet. Drones were on Mount Planet, I, being the Angels, were on the Eastern side of the Freshwater Sea, and the Cyborgs were on the west. I made a pact with Domai, who was at war with Aki-Zeta. He used his pact with me as a "right of passage" to take war parties of speeders and stuff straight to the Cyborgs. I saw him with two speeder formers creating a long road to me so he could get through faster...

What is an Enigma Nova anyway? Is it latin or something?

	24-06-2004 09:16									#86
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Inspired by all this pirate talk I had to go give them a try. I'd never played them (just got Smax recently) and had passed them over for their weaknesses and lack of focus.

They are not at all weak. The does depend on Pods being on and having a decent starting location. I had to quit three pirate games around 2150 because I was dominating much too heavily.

Game 1: Find unoccupied Jungle with second colony foil. 9 bases at 3-4 population with Rec Commons running FM. 500 in the bank and all early SP's started or done, including the PTS. Yipes! Oh, and these are all on Huge-Tech Stagnation - Pods on maps.

Game 2: Find unguarded Manifold Nexus with first colony foil (don't settle right away unless you are sure is my opinion. This was MY2103). Proceeded to net about 5 larval IODs and 3 worms. These found the other factions popping pods along the way. Boxed in Chew-d-awn. Took the Jungle. Again.

Game 3: Again, find Nexus, again bag all early SPs, which is indicative of running away with the game.

Game 4: No nearby landmarks. Hey, I'm not ahead in research!

I'm impressed with the Pirates actually. The Manifold Nexus is probably the best landmark for them in the initial game, before running FM. In fact, it's hard not to want to forgo FM entirely for the early game with it. I've taken to b-lining for probes first of all, well, after Centauri Ecology. Ordinarily I'd study Social Psych or go for Industrial Economics if I can. However, by building transports early, early contact is probable. Factions are all warm and friendly in the early years. If not, there's a probe waiting in the wings.

-Smack

	24-06-2004 09:56									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Commy I bet you would like a screenshot of the AI crawling, too, wouldn't you? So would we all...

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=53463_Supp2.jpg
http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=53463_Supp1.jpg

Hmmm... It was supposed to show the picture.
Is there a better way to insert a picture you uploaded?

Well it works as a link now

	24-06-2004 10:47									#88
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quote: Originally posted by smacksim Inspired by all this pirate talk I had to go give them a try. I'd never played them (just got Smax recently) and had passed them over for their weaknesses and lack of focus. They are not at all weak.

Play them against humans and tell me that. That is all.

	24-06-2004 20:32									#89
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Qwerty88, the link appears to be "lost"...

However, in a former thread, I do believe some pictures were shown of the peacekeepers crawling minerals, as well as the AI crawling fungus squares...

	24-06-2004 20:51									#90
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Yeah, somehow the PKs were crawling 3 minerals.
I then went , then I as I realised how poor the comp was.