15-06-2004 12:55									#1
	AIs and Giga Maps: Is It Just Me Or ... Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Everyone:

... is the AI stupider, for lack of a better word?

I generally play at the King or Emperor level, and the AI does a reasonable job of keeping up or even slightly ahead of me (it depends on the AI nation). But recently I played a game on the Northern Hemisphere map, and here I am with armored divisions in the late 1800s, and only two other AI powers have discovered *gunpowder*!

I've tweaked the map in the editor so there's not too much land (the AI apparently has problems with too much land, according to the editor). What else could be causing the stupidity problem? The map itself, since, technically, it's larger than what the AI is normally used to? I mean, it's *sad* when the AI figures out what monarchy is in the 1600s (AD)!

I never have this problem on the large Earth map that shipped with Civ II.

Anyway, just some observations.

Gatekeeper

	15-06-2004 21:35									#2
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Research costs are higher on larger maps. This magnifies the already very slow pace of AI tech acquisition. Being farther apart at the start also delays their mutual contacts and early chances to trade for different techs. Many end up having to spend the time learning identical techs they might have traded for instead.

	15-06-2004 21:53									#3
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A suggestion...

Play that map again except at Deity. While you are dealing with happiness problems the AI will be moving along. Deity setting is the major handicap you can add at this time, I think.

On the other hand...sometimes that kind of depressed learning curve just happens with the AI. Playing again with your previous setting may give a better result for the (let's face it) pathetic AI.

Good luck and have fun!!

Monk

	16-06-2004 09:50									#4
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quote: Originally posted by solo Research costs are higher on larger maps. This magnifies the already very slow pace of AI tech acquisition. Being farther apart at the start also delays their mutual contacts and early chances to trade for different techs. Many end up having to spend the time learning identical techs they might have traded for instead.

Hmm. I wasn't aware of the research costs being higher on larger maps.

As for trading technologies, I disabled that option a few years ago after getting tired of the AI nations teaming up against me, with the ringleader(s) bringing third- and fifth-rate AI powers up to modern threats via trading and/or giving them knowledge. They still acquire technology via diplomats, spies and trading with me, though.

Gatekeeper

	16-06-2004 09:54									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk A suggestion... Play that map again except at Deity. While you are dealing with happiness problems the AI will be moving along. Deity setting is the major handicap you can add at this time, I think.

Heh. I've played a fair share of deity-level games and wasn't too enamored with them. I'll stick with king- and emperor-level games. They're just about right in my book. (Besides, I play with self-imposed restraints as well.)

quote: On the other hand...sometimes that kind of depressed learning curve just happens with the AI. Playing again with your previous setting may give a better result for the (let's face it) pathetic AI. Good luck and have fun!! Monk

To be fair, I've had some decent AI opponents, particularly if they're on a continent not immediately accessible to me. But, yeah, the AI can be sad at times. I, too, have noticed that the AI is good in some games, pathetic in others ... oftentimes on the same map. In one game, Russia was building Copernicus' Observatory in 1500 BC, and in another, they hadn't even discovered astronomy by 1 AD.

Gatekeeper

	16-06-2004 17:59									#6
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Play real opponents. The AI can't compete.

	17-06-2004 10:57									#7
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**shrugs** It depends on *how* you play against the AI.

My impression is that a typical gamer will seek every advantage s/he can against an AI, even if the advantage (cheat, to be cruder) isn't intended to be exploitable by the game's creators (i.e. surrounding a city with airbases so it can't be hit by AI bombers). As silly as it may sound, I try to play w/i "real world" limitations (say, by limiting the number of offensive units per city to its population points) or, at the very least, the parameters allowed by the programmers.

Besides, I have neither the time nor patience for MPing, what with my work schedule (I'm stressed out enough at work w/o having to add to it by getting my buttocks kicked in at Civ II every night by RL fellow gamers ).

Gatekeeper

	17-06-2004 12:34									#8
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You need tech trading back on if you want the AI to keep up. Otherwise you'll just end up miles ahead with even half-decent terrain. The AI can't use caravans to boost its trade so you have to let them get even by allowing them to trade techs.
Also, by giving them techs in the early game then you can speed your own tech research because your own rate depends upon the number of techs your key civ has. Search for "key civ" on this forum and the strategy forum and you'll get a wealth of information.
Whatever you do, put tech trading back on!

	17-06-2004 13:51									#9
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Perhaps the Macintosh version of Civ II is a bit different from the PC version, then, for the AI, once it has trade, is constantly sending caravans to my cities. I've had times in the latter parts of the game where the AI will sometimes get two tech advances per turn, which put it ahead or level with me.

Gatekeeper

	17-06-2004 17:44									#10
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I play the Mac version (deity/7/raging) and have never experienced anything close to that.

My exerience is that the biggest difference in the Mac version is the uncooperative diplomacy of the AI -- alliances rare, tech trading rare after first meeting, earlier alliances and secret pacts against me.

The net effect is that OCC is much more difficult. Other than that, in a regular game, the AI is really just a bump in the road.

Of course, unless I'm playing for an AC landing, modern units seldom come into play...

	17-06-2004 22:48									#11
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You don't have AI caravans coming to your cities? Admittedly, it's not *all* the time, but quite regularly by the Middle Ages and constantly by modern times (by then they're freight units).

As for diplomacy, I don't play the gold version of Mac Civ II (there's some sort of unresolved issue that, short of removing the MP, causes the game to crash upon exit ... TPTB were never able to solve it, despite extensive efforts), but the "regular" version.

It's rare for me to have a game *not* go into the modern age. It's just the way I play the Earth maps.

Gatekeeper

	17-06-2004 23:40									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper It's rare for me to have a game *not* go into the modern age. It's just the way I play the Earth maps. Gatekeeper

If the way you choose to play (with your self imposed limits and changes to the rules, IIRC) gives you pleasure and fun, then there is no problem, is there.

The strange things you report on happening are probably the result of those choices. It would be very hard for others to have those results because you have essentially changed the game. Over the years, many things have been discovered that led most of us to adopt certain tactics and strategies that you seem to eschew (and here I do NOT refer to cheats like the airbase exploit). This will also and necessarily lead to very different game conditions and experiences for you that nobody would, or even could, ever experience. For the most part, this makes answering your very intriguing questions a shot in the dark.

So when these things happen in your games, just remember that's what you have chosen. The cleric in me remids that if one plants many apple seeds, sooner or later, he will be dealing with bunches of apples.

Both ways you can not have.

Monk

	18-06-2004 01:07									#13
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Gate -- Seldom more than a couple AI trade routes in my games. Often none. (This may be in part because I tend to kill their first camel, to keep them from getting science bonuses. Maybe the AI is smart enough not to waste more shield by building camels to send my way.)

You're wearing the Mac icon, how can you not be playing the MGE version?

	18-06-2004 01:45									#14
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Gate -- Seldom more than a couple AI trade routes in my games. Often none. (This may be in part because I tend to kill their first camel, to keep them from getting science bonuses. Maybe the AI is smart enough not to waste more shield by building camels to send my way.)

You're wearing the Mac icon, how can you not be playing the MGE version?
Are you cheating on us with a PC game????????

	18-06-2004 15:18									#15
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Hi guys,

I'm trying to get back into Civ & Poly - but RL is not giving me much chance at the moment - nothing bad - just lots of it.

For my threehapenth - I seldom see any concerted effort to trade by the AI - my 'normal' game is Deity, Giga
and the AI's research seems to me to be 'about right' ...

Stu

	18-06-2004 18:36									#16
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Stu sighting!!!

Just come back to us when RL permits, man.
You know you want it...

	18-06-2004 22:52									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Hey Stu!! Happy Father's Day to you and, as well, hope we see more of you soon.

Gatekeeper,

I think the main thing from all this is that you seem to really enjoy your games and that is the most important consideration.

Monk

	19-06-2004 00:55									#18
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Sometimes i get camels sometimes i dont.

when i tried building a SSC i got blitzed by camels and freights, when i go for conquest i dont, but then my cities have a poor base trade (trade calulated from terrain, colossus and superhighways), so the caravan revenue is poor. I wonder if the AI evaluates the value of a trade route, using base trade, before sending camels?

	19-06-2004 01:14									#19
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Anything is possible with the AI. It can set units to GOTO cities it has no right to know even the exisitence of, much less the location. All you can do is laugh.

Monk

	19-06-2004 14:04									#20
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Bloody Monk:

It's true about unique gaming conditions. IMO, that's one of the enduring qualities about Civ II is the ability to tweak its rules file, city text file and so on (plus playing it "your" own way).

Gatekeeper

***

-Jrabbit:

The MGE version never worked properly on my machine; a Macsoft programmer and I spent hours and many beta patches trying to figure out what was wrong, but short of ripping out the MP part, it was unfixable. The error was apparently a rare one, but my machine was one of the "lucky ones" to be affected.

So I just play the non-MGE version of Mac Civ II. The AI is better on that version than MGE — at least in terms of not always being aggressive and/or bitter toward the human player from the get-go.

Gatekeeper

***

General observation: Tar-Plantir suggested that, perhaps, having a SSC city or a heavily trade-oriented civilization might play a role in the number of caravans/freights that come your way. He might very well have a significant point, IMO, because I *do* play my games that way, for the most part. Research-oriented the first two-thirds of the game, then warfare at the end during the space race or world conquest (depending on which option I took when setting up game parameters). I always get caravans/freights coming in, and they always go to my largest and most trade intense cities. I bet the AI *does* factor in variables such as city size, trade potential, etc., when figuring out whether to trade with you or not.

One other thing: Am I the only one to notice that the AI basically "cancels" peace treaties the turn after they're signed anytime one is near or participating in a space race? I do, and it's annoying. Well, except that it does give the player an excuse to surprise attack the AI before it does the same to the player (w/o any damage to one's reputation). Heck, not even being the only nuclear power on the planet makes one's nation immune to these "sunset clause" peace treaties. The AI nation(s) can be "enthusiastic" or "worshipful" toward you, yet only officially be in "contact" with you, not at a formal peace.

Basically, I figure anytime I play a space race game, this is what's going to happen, and plan accordingly (this never really pops up in Earth-conquest games). But it still drives me nuts how a Middle Ages AI can rip off space-age technology almost at will, no matter how many diplomats or spies you have in your cities.

Gatekeeper

	21-06-2004 20:45									#21
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One other question about lots of AI camels: do you play primarily on "one large island" with all the other AI civs? That can be a large factor in seeing more AI camels.

	22-06-2004 07:10									#22
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I generally play on Earth maps, with historic starting locations.

	22-06-2004 20:56									#23
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I'll see a few camels while the AI is still on my rock, then maybe only one or two later on after the AI "leaves". If you're playing in Eurasia, then it makes sense that you'll see a number of them.

But the AI getting two techs a turn? Maybe via spying & huts, but I doubt that the AI has research cranked up that high.

	22-06-2004 22:25									#24
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I have trouble getting to 2/turn when it's my entire focus. I've never seen ANY ai civ do better than every other turn (and that was only once, in the Lazy Summer succession).

	23-06-2004 06:47									#25
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It happens to me. Really. Mostly when I'm playing in North America, focused on my own science (and not warfare) and a nation in Eurasia conquers (or decimates) the others early on.

Gatekeeper

P.S. And I *never* get two advances per turn. Every other turn is the best I can do as well.

	23-06-2004 13:17									#26
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In that case Dr duke prescribes caravans. Lots of caravans. I presume that you're aware of the bonus payments on caravan delivery being matched by an equal number of beakers that turn. Now you cannot just buy techs like this, because the game sets a cap of (I think) 2/3 of the beakers required for the next tech for each delivery. This way you have to deliver enough caravans to ensure that your final one only delivers 2 of the three remaining beakers. Now you only need a single beaker and when you get to the next turn, the science required for the tech will be produced by your newest, most rubbish city, leaving all of the others to concentrate their research on the next tech. If you have enough decent-sized cities with all the requisite trade/science improvements then this tech will also arrive that turn. Then it's back to the caravans to generate almost all of the beakers for the next tech. Voila, two techs a turn. You need to ensure that your deliveries are optimised, and be aware of all the bonuses affecting trade arrows, well documented in the Great Library.

	24-06-2004 04:33									#27
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The prescription is appreciated, Dr. Duke.

	24-06-2004 12:52									#28
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Excellent. Use the caravans each turn as needed, keep an eye on the research slider and come back and see me in a month.

And if any of your cities supplies Uranium, then just (rush)buy the freight outright. You will get so much cash from Uranium deliveries that it'll just be silly.
While the freight is in transit (whether you're shipchaining or using airports) then buy as many trade improvements for the home city as possible and maximise the trade output of that city's squares just before delivery to the science city to ensure the largest pay-off possible. Note that Uranium is very rarely supplied in large cities, more often in newer, smaller cities so you have to spend some money to get the huge reward. I've never seen a Uranium repeater, and I'd be surprised if it were indeed possible, but exploit it when it appears.

	25-06-2004 10:59									#29
	Engineering a Ur Repeater Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

In some situations it is possible to have continuous Uranium supplied.

When you deliver the Uranium one of two things will happen. The supply list will change (no Ur any longer) or the Ur slot wll be blocked. In the second case, note the city you delivered to and change all its citizens to elvis while delivering a demanded commodity to the city with blocked Ur supply. The trade route to the Ur delivery city will be replaced by the new delivery, thus, freeing the Ur slot again. Rush, rinse, repeat, for as long as it lasts. I've seen 6-7 turns of continuous Ur supply from one city doing this.

Monk

	26-06-2004 00:41									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Gatekeeper I generally play on Earth maps, with historic starting locations.

So much water... and so predictable!! I never play with that setting!