19-06-2004 03:50									#1
	Senate to rule on Gay Marriage Amendment Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Senate to Take Up Gay Marriage Amendment By JIM ABRAMS, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON - The Senate in mid-July will take up a constitutional amendment banning gay marriage, forcing lawmakers to cast a tough political vote just weeks before the Democratic presidential convention in Massachusetts. President Bush (news - web sites) has urged Congress to move on the amendment, but sponsors acknowledge the difficulty of getting the two-thirds majority to approve it. "We're not certain we'll be successful in this effort," Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas, said at a news conference to announce that the amendment would be on the Senate floor the week of July 12. Cornyn and the measure's chief sponsor, Sen. Wayne Allard, R-Col., denied they were stirring up a divisive political issue two weeks before Democrats gather in Massachusetts, the first state to recognize same-sex marriages. "This was an issue that was thrust upon us by the Massachusetts Supreme Court," Cornyn said. "We didn't pick the battle, we didn't pick the timing." Allard said there were at least 11 pending court cases on the issue around the country. "We must not stand still when the courts are being used to challenge and distort civilization's oldest, most venerable social institution,"he said. Steven Fisher, spokesman for Human Rights Campaign, the nation's largest gay rights group, said the July vote was "an attempt to inject politics into a debate that affects real Americans' lives." Congress, he said, "should focus on the real priorities of the American people: jobs, the economy and the war in Iraq (news - web sites)." Bush announced his support for the amendment last February, but recently has come under pressure from some of his conservative allies to give the issue a higher profile. Paul M. Weyrich, national chairman of an amalgam of conservative organizations known as Coalitions for America, recently said that Bush needs to change the subject from Iraq to the gay marriage ban in order to be re-elected in November. Bush responded last week by reiterating his opposition to gay marriage in remarks to the Southern Baptist Convention, saying that "government, by strengthening and protecting marriage, serves the interests of all." Democratic presidential contender Sen. John Kerry (news - web sites) has criticized the proposed amendment as an effort to drive a political wedge between Americans. He has supported civil unions and said the issue of marriage should be left to the states. Sen. John Edwards (news - web sites), D-N.C., a possible running mate, has expressed a similar stance. The Christian Coalition of America, a strong backer of the amendment, urged people to deluge the Senate with petitions, calls, letter and faxes to ensure an early vote. "Force your senators to take a public position before voters go to the polls this fall," it said in a website message. The House has made no decision on when it might consider the amendment, said Stuart Roy, spokesman for House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas. "We want to pass it, we don't want to just bring it up," he said. The Allard amendment states that "marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman. Neither this Constitution, nor the constitution of any state, shall be construed to require that marriage or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon any union other than the union of a man and a woman." Amendments to the Constitution require approval by two-thirds majorities in the House and Senate and ratification by three-fourths of state legislatures.

	19-06-2004 03:52									#2
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as if they dont have anything better to do than to infringe on the rights of others. to the land of the free

	19-06-2004 04:15									#3
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from article: "This was an issue that was thrust upon us by the Massachusetts Supreme Court," Cornyn said. "We didn't pick the battle, we didn't pick the timing."

What stupid nonsense. I suppose whenever any minority group has made progress towards equal rights in the past, they caused nothing but needless trouble, and thus deserving of callous, vicious, unjustified backlash?

	19-06-2004 04:22									#4
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Such a backwards move. I think it is high time that complete parity existed whatever the nature of the couple.

	19-06-2004 04:39									#5
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In 30 years we've gone from Equal Rights Amendment to now the Marriage Amendment. So much for progress.

	19-06-2004 04:41									#6
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Does this mean I can get some lovin from my wife without fear of any....gayness seeping in?

	19-06-2004 04:52									#7
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What the **** does Congress have shoved up its pale pimply white ass?

	19-06-2004 04:56									#8
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Gay people will still try to destroy the affection you feel for your wife, sleepy.

	19-06-2004 05:00									#9
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Why should the minority dictate terms to the majority?

Let the people vote on the laws on the country.

	19-06-2004 05:02									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Theben Gay people will still try to destroy the affection you feel for your wife, sleepy.

I agree, this is only the first step of many necessary. Step two is personal, I need to get rid of the leather.

	19-06-2004 05:03									#11
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I haven't had a girlfriend in several months. I blame MrFun.

	19-06-2004 05:28									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why should the minority dictate terms to the majority? Let the people vote on the laws on the country.

That's a nice fallacy.


Whether or not a majority of people support anything, does not determine whether that decision is fair or right.

If the majority still supported laws against interracial marriage today, does that justify such laws?

	19-06-2004 05:29									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Theben I haven't had a girlfriend in several months. I blame MrFun.

You haven't seen my desktop in the desktop thread by any chance, have you?

	19-06-2004 05:30									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why should the minority dictate terms to the majority? Let the people vote on the laws on the country.

That's why civil rights supercede the ideals of Democracy... to protect the minority from bigotted pieces of ****. But that's what the right is, a bastion of hate... they hate women, they hate gays, they hate non-whites, they hate the poor... hate hate hate... thats what fuels the right wing.

	19-06-2004 05:52									#15
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Mr. Fun:

quote: Whether or not a majority of people support anything, does not determine whether that decision is fair or right.

True. So why do we have a democracy at all? Why not have a benevolent dictator make the right decisions for all of us?

quote: If the majority still supported laws against interracial marriage today, does that justify such laws?

Not on a prima facie basis. One must examine the rationales behind the laws.

	19-06-2004 05:55									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Mr. Fun: Why not have a benevolent dictator make the right decisions for all of us?

I'm working on it . . . . .

But seriously, there is no need for a benevolent dictatorship.

quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Not on a prima facie basis. One must examine the rationales behind the laws.

Yes -- and just like with laws against interracial marriages, there is NO sound rationality behind laws against gay marriages.

	19-06-2004 05:55									#17
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quote: That's why civil rights supercede the ideals of Democracy...

Ah, not so fast. Why is this an issue of civil rights? Sexual preferences change unlike the colour of your skin.

quote: to protect the minority from bigotted pieces of ****.

Why does this protection extend to the affirmation of gay relationships? One can tolerate something without agreeing with it, just as one protects the speech of those to whom you disagree.

quote: But that's what the right is, a bastion of hate... they hate women, they hate gays, they hate non-whites, they hate the poor... hate hate hate... thats what fuels the right wing.

There's a difference between the person, and his behaviour. You do believe in rehabilitation, eh?

	19-06-2004 05:59									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Why does this protection extend to the affirmation of gay relationships? One can tolerate something without agreeing with it, just as one protects the speech of those to whom you disagree.

Ah yes -- that fabulous word called "toleration."

There's a difference between acceptance and toleration. Many people try to argue for so-called "tolerance" when they are really opposed to enacting any laws that promote equality.

	19-06-2004 05:59									#19
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quote: there is no need for a benevolent dictatorship.

That's a pretty feeble defense of democracy, Mr. Fun.

Is there any need for a democracy?

quote: and just like with laws against interracial marriages, there is NO sound rationality behind laws against gay marriages.

For the same reasons we have Veteran's benefits. The vets give their lives for their country, and the state ought to compensate them for their sacrifice. The same for families that have and raise children. The state could not exist without them, hence the state rewards their sacrifice with certain privileges.

There are benefits to the state derived from traditional marriage, ergo, there is a solid reason to maintain the laws as they stand.

The innovators must come up with a solid argument as to why the laws, which have worked well, ought to be changed.

	19-06-2004 06:01									#20
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quote: Many people try to argue for so-called "tolerance" when they are really opposed to enacting any laws that promote equality.

I do not agree with gay relationships, yet I agree that this is not an area where the state ought to intervene. Therefore, I tolerate that to which I do not agree.

	19-06-2004 06:03									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi That's a pretty feeble defense of democracy, Mr. Fun. Is there any need for a democracy? For the same reasons we have Veteran's benefits. The vets give their lives for their country, and the state ought to compensate them for their sacrifice. The same for families that have and raise children. The state could not exist without them, hence the state rewards their sacrifice with certain privileges. There are benefits to the state derived from traditional marriage, ergo, there is a solid reason to maintain the laws as they stand. The innovators must come up with a solid argument as to why the laws, which have worked well, ought to be changed.

I am a devoted supporter of democracy, smartass.


As for your usual pro-creation justification for unfair discrimination -- it does not go well with straight marriages that are not reproductive.

And also, since granting legal recognition to gay marriages will not magically cause straight people from not marrying anymore and stop having children, it's another reason why you are full of bullshit.

	19-06-2004 06:09									#22
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quote: I am a devoted supporter of democracy, smartass.

For very flimsy reasons...

You seem to like democracy, except when the people disagree with you.

True democracy allows everybody to have a say in the laws of their country rather than a tiny, vocal, minority.

quote: pro-creation justification for unfair discrimination -- it does not go well with straight marriages that are not reproductive.

What percentage of all marriages are procreative, Mr. Fun?

quote: since granting legal recognition to gay marriages will not magically cause straight people from not marrying anymore and stop having children, it's another reason why you are full of bullshit.

Maybe not now, but when children are taught the opposite, this will have an effect.

Secondly, if the state benefits from marriage, then they ought to preserve the regulations that provide benefits to marriage. Seems very straightforward to me.

	19-06-2004 06:09									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Ah, not so fast. Why is this an issue of civil rights? Sexual preferences change unlike the colour of your skin.

So do political and religious beliefs, yet this doesn't give us the right to discriminate against those who hold political and religious beliefs that we don't like.

quote: There are benefits to the state derived from traditional marriage, ergo, there is a solid reason to maintain the laws as they stand.

Do you mean to imply that extending marriage benefits to homosexuals will somehow decrease the marriage benefits already extended to heterosexuals?

quote: I do not agree with gay relationships, yet I agree that this is not an area where the state ought to intervene.

How is supporting a "protection of marriage" amendment akin to agreeing that the state ought not to intervene in this matter?

	19-06-2004 06:12									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi For very flimsy reasons... You seem to like democracy, except when the people disagree with you. True democracy allows everybody to have a say in the laws of their country rather than a tiny, vocal, minority. What percentage of all marriages are procreative, Mr. Fun? Maybe not now, but when children are taught the opposite, this will have an effect. Secondly, if the state benefits from marriage, then they ought to preserve the regulations that provide benefits to marriage. Seems very straightforward to me.

I believe in democracy -- I just do not believe in the tyranny of the majority.


And I seriously, sincerely doubt all straight children will ever become indoctrinated to not marry and have children.

Besides the fact that a large number of gays have the same desire to establish their own families as straight people do -- just with a partner of the same gender.

	19-06-2004 06:14									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Ah, not so fast. Why is this an issue of civil rights? Sexual preferences change unlike the colour of your skin.

In spite of the small minority of insecure gays who have claimed to have changed their sexual orientation, the more objective, consensus evidence seem to show that sexual orientation cannot be changed.

	19-06-2004 06:15									#26
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger How is supporting a "protection of marriage" amendment akin to agreeing that the state ought not to intervene in this matter?

Excellent point loiny -- I would like to see how Ben Kenobi can claim to oppose government intervention, but then turn around to support government intervention when proposed policies are anti-gay.

	19-06-2004 06:16									#27
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quote: So do political and religious beliefs, yet this doesn't give us the right to discriminate against those who hold political and religious beliefs that we don't like.

Right. But they do not require society to affirm certain religious or political beliefs.

quote: Do you mean to imply that extending marriage benefits to homosexuals will somehow decrease the marriage benefits already extended to heterosexuals?

That's what happened here in Canada. Exactly what happened. Benefits given to marriage have completely disappeared.

quote: How is supporting a "protection of marriage" amendment akin to agreeing that the state ought not to intervene in this matter?

There is a difference between relationships and marriage. A big difference. Marriage requires the intervention of the state in order to be enforced. This is why we have laws against bigamy, and polygamy, incest and the rest. If one argues that the state should stop playing a role in defining marriage, then one loses the laws against bigamy and polygamy.

	19-06-2004 06:19									#28
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quote: And I seriously, sincerely doubt all straight children will ever become indoctrinated to not marry and have children.

How can children have a sexual preference, Mr. Fun? That begs one of the questions at hand. Preferences can and do change.

Secondly, there have been many attempts to inculate these values in Canadian children, even in Kindergarten. If they are not indoctrinated, it will not be for lack of trying.

	19-06-2004 06:21									#29
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quote: In spite of the small minority of insecure gays who have claimed to have changed their sexual orientation, the more objective, consensus evidence seem to show that sexual orientation cannot be changed.

Ah!

A no true Scotsman!

	19-06-2004 06:21									#30
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Sexual orientation is not a preference.