29-06-2004 09:03									#31
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Ok, it's obvious you really have no compelling arguments to pursue other than newbie calling, I think I'll just leave it at that and address other more intellingent posts.

My response to MrWhereItsAt had nothing to do with you being a newbie. You're just know you can't respond. I personally want it more complex, but through experience I know that developers have reasons for not making games complex.

The difference between newbies and people who aren't is that people who aren't can have substantive posts and still insult people. Newbies can only insult at one time, like you have in the post I'm responding to.

	29-06-2004 09:10									#32
	Remove this text

OF course, as just a newby and all, and a non-marketing professional and, heh, I´m not even american! ( ) but I really think that a complex history-oriented game is something very interesting, and that in such a context the complexity adds to the feel of history. Of course, we´re not talking about making civ4 a micromanagement hell, just of making it full of options.

And experience tells most of the problems with micromanagement derive from failed gameplay systems rather than from excessive complexity of given games.

	29-06-2004 09:14									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Nuclear Winter And experience tells most of the problems with micromanagement derive from failed gameplay systems rather than from excessive complexity of given games.

And experience tells us that a lot of people quit games of Civ when they read a certain number of cities, because there is too much stuff to do. Thus, a lot of thought needs to go into new ideas to make sure they don't get too time consuming near the end of the game. And there really is a limit to how much time-consuming-whatever you can remove in terms of having many cities.

	29-06-2004 09:23									#34
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by mrmitchell I can't say how to implement this, but I just want micromanagement to be available, however, I would prefer that intelligent automation is available as well. EDIT: I mean intelligent automation too. And by that I mean damn smart. Smarter than me. (Actually, that's not too good an example...how about smarter than TEH OMFG SID or TEH OMFG SORNE?)

The beauty of civ is that you decide how much complexity you want to add to it. Obviously you can't win Deity without some heavy dose of micromanaging and which is why they appeal to those hard-core complexity freaks. On the other hand, good regular players who don't even frequent boards can win Monarch with smart play but not resort to such overwhelming detail.

	29-06-2004 09:25									#35
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen The beauty of civ is that you decide how much complexity you want to add to it. Obviously you can't win Deity without some heavy dose of micromanaging and which is why they appeal to those hard-core complexity freaks. On the other hand, good regular players who don't even frequent boards can win Monarch with smart play but not resort to such overwhelming detail.

You can win on diety with very little micromanagement and just 1 city....

	29-06-2004 09:28									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse And experience tells us that a lot of people quit games of Civ when they read a certain number of cities, because there is too much stuff to do. Thus, a lot of thought needs to go into new ideas to make sure they don't get too time consuming near the end of the game. And there really is a limit to how much time-consuming-whatever you can remove in terms of having many cities.

A lot = the great majority? Where are you basing your "experience" on? I for one have quit many games while also finished a whole bunch more, same with most people I know. You don't need to end games to enjoy them, moreso, the fact that you just bought the game pretty much proves that you did find some interest in it. Btw, I'll remind you you can set world size customizing it for those who like small quick games with a small number of civs and cities and those who enjoy gargantuan giant maps.

	29-06-2004 09:29									#37
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse You can win on diety with very little micromanagement and just 1 city....

... and with a HIGHLY beneficial start which less than 5% (probably less than 1%) of all random starts ever would allow.

	29-06-2004 09:34									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen A lot = the great majority? Where are you basing your "experience" on? I for one have quit many games while also finished a whole bunch more, same with most people I know. You don't need to end games to enjoy them, moreso, the fact that you just bought the game pretty much proves that you did find some interest in it. Btw, I'll remind you you can set world size customizing it for those who like small quick games with a small number of civs and cities and those who enjoy gargantuan giant maps.

I'm basing it on being in the community for over 7 years and talking with various developers. I know you don't need to end a game to have fun, and I know about map size. I'm saying that the majority of people don't want to deal with that much complexity. It's a shame because I like complexity. And don't get all your ideas from people on this forum about what people like. It's mainly dedicated people who go to this forum. There are a lot of casual gamers who don't browse forums and just want fun.

	29-06-2004 09:36									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen I'm rather disappointed that this is the attitude taken towards development. There are many areas in Civ3 which could definitely require additional sofistication while leaving others the same or simply ironing them out.

Refining existing features does not really increase complexity, at least at the user-end of the equation. It doesn't add a new feature, so it is doubtful it would require some other feature to be removed.

	29-06-2004 09:38									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen ... and with a HIGHLY beneficial start which less than 5% (probably less than 1%) of all random starts ever would allow.

Now you're backtracking.

	29-06-2004 09:41									#41
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse I'm basing it on being in the community for over 7 years and talking with various developers. I know you don't need to end a game to have fun, and I know about map size. I'm saying that the majority of people don't want to deal with that much complexity. It's a shame because I like complexity. And don't get all your ideas from people on this forum about what people like. It's mainly dedicated people who go to this forum. There are a lot of casual gamers who don't browse forums and just want fun.

And they don't have fun playing Monarch and below? I was a regular Monarch winner before joining this site. Most people I know even being in this community have fun with the game without micromanaging so what's the point? The mad-micromanagers are a very small minority EVEN in "the community". As you can see, the majority of people have fun with Civ3's current complexity level and I see no real problem in making it a bit more so as long as it is done in a way which makes the game more fun. Civ2 did it wonderfully with respect to Civ1. Civ3 also accomplished this with respect to its predecessor, it's main drawback was not its increased complexity but rather many features which were far from being polished and actually detracted from the fun.

	29-06-2004 09:44									#42
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Now you're backtracking.

You are saying you can beat deity without micromanaging and with only one city. I dare you or anyone to accomplish this with 9 out of 10 starts. A regular deity game requires a lot of micromanaging, in constrast with the lower difficulty levels where it is not needed to win. As you can see, Civ3 allows both players who love complexity and those who don't to enjoy it.

	29-06-2004 09:44									#43
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen it's main drawback was not its increased complexity but rather many features which were far from being polished and actually detracted from the fun.

And why do you expect it to be different this time?

	29-06-2004 09:46									#44
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen You are saying you can beat deity without micromanaging and with only one city. I dare you or anyone to accomplish this with 9 out of 10 starts. A regular deity game requires a lot of micromanaging, in constrast with the lower difficulty levels where it is not needed to win. As you can see, Civ3 allows both players who love complexity and those who don't to enjoy it.

You said "heavy dose of micromanaging" without any qualifier. If people can with it in a good position with 1 city, it doesn't take too much more to win it with a few more.

	29-06-2004 09:49									#45
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Civ2's additional complexity added GREATLY to the game. Not all of Civ3's complexity did. You cannot tell beforehand whether complexity will be good or bad to the game.

It seems to me that you and Soren are of the idea that complexity in itself is something bad and will make the game boring and daunting to a singificant majority of potential sellers. I disagree with that opinon with the reasons I have posted. I am of the opinion that complexity, added correctly, can greatly increase the quality and fun in Civ4. It is our jobs as members of the community to suggest these things which we think can make the game better and it is up to the developers to pay heed at these possibilities, not discard them off the bat thinking that the game is already as complex as it could get.

	29-06-2004 10:09									#46
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen Civ2's additional complexity added GREATLY to the game. Not all of Civ3's complexity did. You cannot tell beforehand whether complexity will be good or bad to the game.

This goes to the technology argument. Not everything in Civ2 was available technologically when Civ1 was out. Read my previous posts.

quote: Originally posted by Master Zen It seems to me that you and Soren are of the idea that complexity in itself is something bad and will make the game boring and daunting to a singificant majority of potential sellers. I disagree with that opinon with the reasons I have posted. I am of the opinion that complexity, added correctly, can greatly increase the quality and fun in Civ4. It is our jobs as members of the community to suggest these things which we think can make the game better and it is up to the developers to pay heed at these possibilities, not discard them off the bat thinking that the game is already as complex as it could get.

Again, read my previous posts. I am not against complexity. I like it. I find it more enjoyable personally. But a lot of people don' tlike it. Firaxis, like Trip said, isn't just tossing out every idea either. Just don't expect everything you want to go in and automatically be looked at.

	29-06-2004 13:26									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Trip Soren Johnson, aka the Lead Designer for Civ 4, aka the guy who decides everything that will or will not be in the game, has stated that for every feature added to Civ 4 (compared with Civ 3), another would be taken out. This states, quite plainly, that Civ 4 isn't going to be any more complex than Civ 3.

You don't understand complexity at all.

Complexity is not the same as a heap of unrelated features. Complexity should come from deep interactions of a few well chosen principles.

Prime example is the game of Weichi (Go).

	29-06-2004 20:06									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse No, "change" as in you are glad it's different but lose respect for it because it didn't have the balls to stick up for it's beliefs.

Oh ask the guy... i'm not the author of this sentence and will not break my head on something that for a thing is pretty penny-pitching for me NOW.

But well... changes can be removals (for example remove the unit Zone of Control from civ2 to civ3), replacements (like civ2 city borders by culture borders) or modifications (rip off the civ2 Firepower system of the combat system, it is simplest even if some players don't like it, also it changes the whole battle balance)

Improves are to better link some aspects with other part of the game, like the whole technical thing, interfaces and even game features. Like is the firepower removal an improvement? It is only a modification as if it changes slitely the whole battle system, nothing can tell that it is just better, some players prefer it, some others prefer the old one, some others do not care and go with it. The fact is that there are more units, more action, more randomness. Funnier is a way, heavier in another way. In another hand, more units to build is another balance, like making the gameplay more enjoyable so in this way yes it is better, but it cannot go alone, it have to go with all other aspects of the game like buildings costs and importance, time of game etc...
Improvements are not just about one feature and one other feature, it is more like about the whole system of the game and its gameplay.

In which case goes the complexity? the first one probably, as a more complicated game does not do a better game for everybody. I would see luxury/moral as an improvement.
But depends on the public target so it could be counted as an improvement also.

So nothing is lost.

	29-06-2004 20:10									#49
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

My first post in this thread was more of a joke...everything else is pretty serious though.

	29-06-2004 20:13									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse My first post in this thread was more of a joke...everything else is pretty serious though.

we will become great friends then.

	29-06-2004 20:19									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

That's ok, I wasn't looking.

	29-06-2004 21:11									#52
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse The difference between newbies and people who aren't is that people who aren't can have substantive posts and still insult people. Newbies can only insult at one time, like you have in the post I'm responding to.

This is what you are doing.

For your knowledge, Master Zen was one of the beta testers of C3C

So "newbie"...

	30-06-2004 01:30									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

:sigh:

I still snicker when people think they have certain moral or intellectual authority over others because of post count/date registered/time in the community/massive ego/inferiority complex and that actually justifies them insulting others.

So utterly pathetic it's laughable. Some people just seriously need to grow up and get a life.

	30-06-2004 02:29									#54
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Being a beta tester doesn't automatically bring a certain status. Anyone remember Thomas A. Stobie?

What I'm doing to trying to point out that these people know that a very complex game will not sell well. You can't have that much complexity optional too. It leads to the game being unpolished. I've repeated this and you ignore it because you are just on the issue on whether complexity is good or not. I'm on your side in that complexity makes a game more fun for me personally, but it's not the same for everyone. And that is why Firaxis isn't going add everything. No one is saying you can't suggest things. Just that don't be immature and cry if your idea doesn't get in.

	30-06-2004 02:41									#55
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Apocalypse what you still haven't been able to get into your little brain is that there AREN'T any special status, whether you were a beta tester, whether you have Brian Reynolds on your ICQ list or whether you were admin of a long defunct forum.

What matters is your knowledge of the game, and your ideas on how to make it better. Will all our ideas make it into Civ4? Of course not! But do we still have every right to suggest, to debate and to criticize in a civilized manner? Of course we do! No one is crying yet because we still don't know what will go in and what won't and NOTHING is definitive at this stage.

So, for the last time, drop the "i've been here before all you noobs" attitude because there are countless people with far greater civ experience than you have and can provide just as good ideas as you or anyone else. If you don't like them, so be it. You have every right to counter these ideas. But using the "you are noobs" excuse is simply immature and pathetic and is not likely to get your ideas any respect if you continue with that attitude.

That is all I have to say about this. This thread has been jacked enough but I will repeat my on-topic argument one last time: complexity in itself does not necessarily make the game better or worse and ideas which could add to the Civ experience should definitely be considered without having the mindset of taking out others just because the game is already as complex as it it should, because it isn't.

-MZ

	30-06-2004 02:50									#56
	Get a bigger avatar today!

You've been the one who's been changing the subject. And you're just basing the game not being as complex as it should be on your own inflated opinion. The reason I'm saying regristation date can have meaning, is that people who've been around for a while have heard this argument before. We know the reponses and the reasoning. That's why it means something in this particular area. When it comes to strategy and things like that, newcomers can provide really good input, but on certain things, experience is an advantage. Grow up. I've never used "i've been here before all you noobs" - I use capital letters when needed and correct punctuation, as well and generally correct spelling. Your attack using that is a perfect example of how you've been ignoring what I've been saying and going on your own little tanget. Respond to what I'm actually saying and maybe you'll get a little more respect. It is not my intention to troll you, but a lot of people have told me to keep it up just because of your immature reactions. I, having better things to do, still don't set out to do this. I just provide input.

	30-06-2004 02:58									#57
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Shall I get Ming in here?

	30-06-2004 13:30									#58
	Put an end to popups!

Master Zen and Apocalypse are actors.

	30-06-2004 13:39									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Apoc: If everything's already been thought of and discussed, why are we here rehashing things over and again?

	30-06-2004 19:30									#60
	Increase Your PM Length

Not everything. I'm just saying *some* things don't change.