19-06-2004 20:14									#1
	Time Warp Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I recently started a PBEM using Time Warp. I’d never really played with this much, but it was interesting since everyone is on a relatively even level (giving the AI a boost). It also means the early Projects were spread out, diluting the human turn advantage that more or less decide the game in the early game portion, which makes human players work a bit harder.

It is also painful to see how the AI is crippled by terrible terraforming and the lack of aggressive base expansion. I’m sure my Cyborgs will spend a LONG time undoing this damage before I can meaningfully expand my poor, blighted faction.

I also noticed that Projects (one of each goes to every faction) are completed even if that faction doesn’t have the requisite technology. For instance, my Cyborgs got the PTS even though I am a long way away from Industrial Automation. Please understand that I am tickled pink to get this Project since it will allow me to expand very quickly, but it does seem a bit illogical (to slip into the Prime Function’s vocabulary) to have completed such an aggressive later early game Project with wimpy bases and without the needed tech! Oh, well…

Hydro

	19-06-2004 20:29									#2
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I'm suddenly feeling inspired to try a time warp game

-=Vel=-

	19-06-2004 21:34									#3
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wow, I didn't think it warped you that far ahead (PTS wonder). I think I tried one of these once.

maybe I'll try again

	19-06-2004 22:46									#4
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The starting year for our Time Warp PBEM is 2131. That is REALLY early to complete the PTS, or any other large Project. Maybe HGP or WP with early tech and 200 mins, but a 300 mineral Project that early (even if you accumulate minerals and switch) is quite a stretch.

Based on my limited knowledge the seven Projects that are spread out among the factions are:

HGP (Caretakers, AI)
WP (Believers, AI)
VW (Spartans, AI)
ME (Morgan, human)
PTS (Cyborgs, human - me!)
CN (Hive, AI)
CDF (Usurpers, AI)

Some Projects seem to be tagged for a certain faction (ME for Morgan), but maybe I'll start a few games to see if there is a pre-disposition for factions for Projects, or what Projects are even in the starting seven.

Some of these are quite a ways down the tech tree (PTS and CDF, for instance), and are quite expensive (300 mins).

In this PBEM the AI is going to be MUCH more effective with the Time Warp and these Projects. Even if they don't do anything with them (eg - Spartans and VW, since Santiago seldom builds NNs until late) they will deny them to human players. And some will be nasty, such as Hive with CN and the aliens with CDF and HGP.

I predict this PBEM will be something of a challenge!

Hydro

	19-06-2004 23:04									#5
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Time warp is a nice feature of Smac. After a couple games that are unsatisfying b/c you build nearly all the SPs and the AI has no chance in Chiron of hurting you, it's a fresh wake-up call to realize that, in a time warp, you are going to have to play 'Morgan the Conqueror' to get the projects you so dearly want to own.

I think it's also a nice feature for new players (are there any?). By examining how the AI lays out it's bases and does terraforming, it gives some hint as to how to expand on the theme. Granted, it's a goofy AI theme (farm-solar, 5 garrisons, big base spacing, etc.), but it can be inspiring in it's way.

The main reason I don't play these games often is the hassle of undoing all the terra-wronging. But after that's taken care of, it's refreshing to see Lal's missiles coming for a visit. Something I hardly ever see in regular games anymore.

Has anyone else noticed that the starting year for a time warp game isn't always the same? It might be because of other game settings, but I've had games at 2160 and 2130. Anyone know?

-Smack

	20-06-2004 03:50									#6
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I've had some time warp games start at 2180. I don't know what the pattern is.

	20-06-2004 10:20									#7
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My very first game was a time-warp game, playing as the Spartans (that extra morale caught my eye, even though I was a newbie who knew nothing). I specifically remember having the Command Nexus, because I couldn't figure out why I couldn't build command centers. Well, duh, they were already there, but I was stupid, had no idea what I was doing, and of course it drove me mad...

As for the year, I can't tell you much...

	21-06-2004 01:01									#8
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I started 10 games in SMAX with the original factions to check the setup for time warp games. Here is the breakdown:

Start years:
2131 – 4
2161 – 5
2181 – 1

Bases – in general, the number of bases 2131 and 2161 ranged from 3 to 4, and in 2181 it was 5.

Projects – the same seven projects showed up each time (CDF, CN, HGP, ME, PTS, VW, and WP), and they did not seem to be distributed randomly (gut feel – I didn’t test this):

Faction CDF CN HGP ME PTS VW WP
Hive - 0 2 3 0 0 4 1
PK 2 1 2 2 1 0 2
Gaia 3 0 1 2 2 1 1
Belvr 2 3 0 1 1 1 2
Uni 0 2 0 4 2 0 1
Morg 2 0 3 0 2 2 1
Sparta 1 2 0 1 2 2 2

As I found before, factions got project even without the requisite techs. So, maybe it is totally random. A bigger sample would be needed to see for sure.

Last edited by Hydro on 21-06-2004 at 06:25

	21-06-2004 02:17									#9
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Those distributions may look nonrandom, but the small sample size precludes demonstrating that. I did a quick chi-square test (from descriptions on the internet, I don't remember much from my statistics course), which should overestimate the significance of deviations in a small sample, and it gave me a >.5 probability that those variations would arise by chance.

	21-06-2004 03:35									#10
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CT - my stats books are at work so I didn't bother. 10 is typically the minimum statistically significant sample size, but small populations yield much larger error. If I get ambitious I may do more.

	21-06-2004 04:07									#11
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Those distributions look wrong, the columns don't all add up to 10. 12 CDF's built, 9 PTS's... and so on.

	21-06-2004 06:26									#12
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Blake - you are quite right. I slipped a couple of digits when keying them in. Now they are fixed (I hope).

Hydro

	21-06-2004 09:05									#13
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code:

T H I S   I S   H O W   Y O U   U S E   M U L T I P L E    S P A C E S

Remake that SS!

	21-06-2004 11:17									#14
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I think the University built the HGP once, the Univ row adds up to 9 as does the HGP column.

	21-06-2004 11:47									#15
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code:

Fac: CDF CN HGP ME PTS VW WP
Hive  0  2   3  0   0  4  1
Peac  2  1   2  2   1  0  2
Gaia  3  0   1  2   2  1  1
Bele  2  3   0  1   1  1  2
Univ  0  2   1  4   2  0  1
Morg  2  0   3  0   2  2  1
Spar  1  2   0  1   2  2  2

	22-06-2004 01:15									#16
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Okay, that is just retarded. Obviously the Gaians are always going to get the WP, as Morgan for the ME...

Why I never will play time-warp again...

	22-06-2004 05:16									#17
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I wouldn't be surprised if the Drones or the Hive got the WP, actually.
CentEco is the first tech that many folk will research.

	26-06-2004 20:17									#18
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How does Time Warp affect you if you have restructured your SPs and tech tree? I put the Uni Translator much earlier and I wonder if that means that a faction will get their hands on that if I Time Warp.

It's just a jump to the left, and then a step to the right!

	26-06-2004 20:50									#19
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Yeah, but lets consider this realistically. The gaians have an interest, the Drones and Hive don't. Same reason the University would get the Supercollider, they have the interest...

Not to mention that more than just the drones and hive will get centauri ecology first...

	26-06-2004 21:33									#20
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Alinestra Covelia,

I'm fairly sure that the SPs are distributed based on their position in the SP list in alpha.txt, rather than on their prereqs. Note the players getting PTS without IA, etc. I've never changed the order of the projects because, as you say, it's easy to just change the tech prerequisites and otherwise the list order doesn't matter (well, except for movie lookups, etc.). I've never heard of anyone changing the list order. It'd be worth trying!

-Smack

	27-06-2004 08:33									#21
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Perhaps make the Ascent to Transcendence one of the first projects, and hope it's the one you get...

	27-06-2004 11:01									#22
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Commy.

	28-06-2004 01:22									#23
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Hmmm, that gives me an idea for a scenario...give everyone their starting tech, + threshhold of transcendence. Then make ascent to transcendence the only victory option. Make it on a really tiny map, and maybe throw intense rivalry in there or something.

I don't think it would be much fun with the AI (the AI doesn't fully understand the importance of building the Ascent. They start it all right, but they don't put any additional resources into it like EC's or crawlers like they should be doing). Against some other humans, though, it could be interesting...

	28-06-2004 22:42									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia It's just a jump to the left, and then a step to the right!

Put your hands on your hips, and pull your knees in tight
A RHPS fan