23-06-2004 00:26									#31
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Ok obs. I almost feel like popping in our private forum now.

	23-06-2004 00:37									#32
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But you are no longer a Gaian

	23-06-2004 01:18									#33
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I know. :cry:

	23-06-2004 01:21									#34
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Don't cry - you left on your own :

	23-06-2004 01:25									#35
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quote: Originally posted by HongHu I know. :cry:

You're always be a Gaian... in your heart!

	23-06-2004 01:51									#36
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I also must object to the stockpile energy bug. Putting it in the build queues should be illegal. It does favor builders, and it does have a big effect in your overall income, allowing you to rush things and progress much more quickly. It would also be easy to police. As far as the stockpile energy bug happening naturally, I guess we could allow it, as I don't know how one would police it or prevent it from happening (hey, we all forget to place an item in a build queue every once in a while.)

Everything else looks good. Of course, this is my fist ACDG, so I'm not familiar with what has been generally accepted in the past. If the stockpile energy bug has been used in the past, and it didn't have any adverse effects then, then I suppose it would be okay.

	23-06-2004 02:03									#37
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If we'd want to eliminate the stockpile energy bug, we'd have to:
1) forbid putting stockpile energy in the queue after a unit,
2) force everyone to put something else (anything except stockpile energy) in the queue after a facility or secret project.

If we only forbid 1) stockpile energy after a unit, as you suggest, then the stockpile energy bug will no longer work for unit production, but still for facility/SP production. And since I assume momentum players will produce more units than builders, this is actually even more in the disadvantage of momentum players!

So completely forbidding the stockpile energy bug would be most levelling back the field in the favour of momentum, however since I assume no one will like being forced having to use the queue, I think completely allowing the bug for everyone and everything is the next best thing.

	23-06-2004 02:04									#38
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Actually the stockpile energy bug favours anyone who makes a lot of units. You only get extra energy from stockpiling after a unit not after a facility of secret project.

Normally when a facility or secret project is built and the build queue is empty, the game automatically inserts stockpile energy into the build queue. Hence, when a facility or SP is built, the normal game behaviour is to get extra e.c.s.

However, when a unit is produced, the game automatically starts work on another unit of the same kind. The normal game behaviour is to get no e.c.s after producing a unit.

Therefore, whoever produces more units (Usually the momentum players I'd say) gains more from this. Consider also that a builder will usually have a better infrastructure, and so the cash from stockpiling is less significant.

	23-06-2004 02:09									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Chaunk Normally when a facility or secret project is built and the build queue is empty, the game automatically inserts stockpile energy into the build queue. Hence, when a facility or SP is built, the normal game behaviour is to get extra e.c.s.

Getting credits that way is normal in the sense that the game automatically switches to stockpile energy, but I suppose it's still not normal in the sense that the stockpile energy bug probably isn't a deliberate feature by the designers, meaning that if the game worked properly, builders wouldn't get the extra cash.

	23-06-2004 02:10									#40
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Granted, but on the basis that forcing people to use queues is too much hassle, we have to allow stockpile energy to even out the unintended behaviour IMHO.

	23-06-2004 02:22									#41
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The real secret to getting lots of Stockpile Bug energy is to have pruduction of some "thing" finish in your bases as often as possible, idealy every turn if you can manage it. Each time you manage that your converting your yearly mineral income into Credits at a 2:1 ratio and when you spend thouse Credits to hurry production you can get a aproimatly 1 production for 2 credits for a total ratio of 4:1. Basicaly a 25% refund on the stockpiled minerals.

This all translates to an EFFICIENCY OF SCALE, by having a base finish its current production as often as possible rather then laboring away for 20 years on a progjet too large for it you lower overall costs. This supposed BUG infact replicates real world economics!

(I dont think this is intended by Firaxis, its just pure luck that of all the bugs one of them actualy incresses realism)

Thus I fully support our stance of using the Stockpile Energy Bug for all multiplayer gaming

	23-06-2004 03:39									#42
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The more reason why AI's get behind that quickly? They don't use that bug eh...

	23-06-2004 16:07									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Impaler[WrG] This supposed BUG infact replicates real world economics!

Not quite. The problem with stockpile energy bug is that you can't use the build queue. Building small things often, like rec commons, tanks, creches, etc., gets your more energy if you build them with a stockpile energy after each, than if you put things in the queue after them. Likewise with units. It means if you set it to build a scout, then a rover, then a cruiser, it gets less money than a scout and a stockpile, a rover and a stockpile then a cruiser and a stockpile. That isn't real world economics, that's a bug.

But yes, building things most similar to your size does generate the best economies of scale, usually.

	23-06-2004 18:08									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Chaunk Granted, but on the basis that forcing people to use queues is too much hassle, we have to allow stockpile energy to even out the unintended behaviour IMHO.

I agree.

	23-06-2004 23:33									#45
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whats the deal with choppers attacking bases?

	23-06-2004 23:59									#46
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No deal, they're forbidden to do so. For the rest choppers stay the same I though (not sure if they need to have the 'tactical' ability enabled though).

	24-06-2004 00:02									#47
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You beat me by a mere minute Geo

	24-06-2004 00:02									#48
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No, we voted against forcing the tactical ability. The only restriction on choppers is no attacking bases. This is because (for those who missed earlier discussion) choppers are often seen as overpowered and so we have limited them by removing their ability to attack bases. They can of course still be used to attack units outside of bases.

	24-06-2004 00:06									#49
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I believe Drogue is compiling all the rules for this game so we will have a clear reference.

	24-06-2004 02:10									#50
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Question on parallel turns. It says in Maniacs list they're allowed for diplomacy. Is that all they're allowed for? Obviously information gained through exploring differently in a parallel turn cannot be gained, but (not pointing fingers, I want to know what is and isn't allowed ) in the hive forum Mead played a turn (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=108172)
but this was not the official turn played & then posted by the hive.

From the lack of comments by the mods, I presume this is ok. If it is, should we change the above statement to "parallel turns are allowed except for extra exploring"?

Edited for clarity.

	24-06-2004 02:34									#51
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Hmmm you are right. I think at the Hive we actually did several parallel turns. The main purpose was to see a player's skill level so that we could use him/her as the official turn player. But we have tried to be careful the parallel turn should be played later than the official turn. However from the thread you referenced looks like we played the parallel turn ahead of time. I would say that it is ok to discuss orders for say base productions, but it is not ok to gain any information from a parallel turn that would not obtain from an official turn. In other words I agree with your extra exploring being not allowed.

	24-06-2004 02:40									#52
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Does "testing out battle orders" and "moving your probe units to check the probe cost of something and only then decide whether or not you're going to probe" also fall under "extra exploring" and thus not allowed?

	24-06-2004 02:59									#53
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Would disallowing testing out military orders cover all these?

	25-06-2004 17:53									#54
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Poll posted: http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=117456

I have clarified what is or is not allowed by parallel turns, using what is posted here.

	25-06-2004 23:55									#55
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Ah, okay, in that case, we better leave the stockpile energy bug in. I just haven't played extensively with it so I'm not as familiar with it, but it sounds like leaving it in will be fair.

	09-04-2005 02:58									#56
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bump

	09-04-2005 22:01									#57
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Arginine: This thread is for rules discussion. The rules are stickied. Therefore this thread does not need to be bumped, unless you wish to make a post about discussing the rules.