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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:36
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We've had many threads, some claiming to be unofficial, for discussing questions of cheating, bugs and scenarios. Here is the official thread for discussing what the rules will be. After this discussion, when we seem to have a coherant rule system mapped out, I'll poll for them to be accepted or not.
What rules would you want?
In game rules:
Stockpile energy bug?
Former reactivation bug?
The bug to find bases - Kody's or Impaler's?
Any more that need mentioning?
Out of game rules:
Should who can do diplomacy be an in game or a set decision?
What about unauthorised turn playing or diplomacy?
Should these be down to individual factions?
Turn simulators?
Time limit?
Anything else?
Also, what should be done if a team breaks the rules? Should I be required to inform a faction leader if a member breaks their rules, but not the game rules?
I want people to discussed any and all rules they want, and appropriate punishments for breaking them. Also, how much of how a faction runs (from diplomacy, to democracy, to rogue members playing the turn) should be down to the faction, and how much should be decided now and enforced by me? Personally I favour faction self rule as much as possible, since all the factions have different RPs, and different styles of government and attitudes to things, but that's my opinion.
Edit: Also, what of the pledge? Should we ask everyone to read and take it? Should we come up with our own, based on these rules, and fairplay?
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Chaunk
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CEO of Morgan Industries, ACDG3
Apr 2002
time: 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
What rules would you want?
In game rules:
Stockpile energy bug?
Former reactivation bug?
The bug to find bases - Kody's or Impaler's?
Any more that need mentioning? |
Yes, No, No (as in neither allowed - No black clicking/dragging at all.) I can't think of any others but I'm sure there are some more that we should think about.
quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
Out of game rules:
Should who can do diplomacy be an in game or a set decision?
What about unauthorised turn playing or diplomacy?
Should these be down to individual factions?
Turn simulators?
Time limit?
Anything else? |
The official diplomat(s) should do diplomacy. However, there must be adepate provision for them to be away, and perhaps we need a more water tight diplomatic protocol agreement.
Unauthorised diplomacy & turn playing should be ignored by the other factions.
Should a faction wish that any player be the turn player, or every player be a diplomat, then that would be their perogative - deciding who a diplomat/turnplayer is should be down to the factions individually, but they should follow the diplomatic and turn playing rules we set out.
Turn simulators allowed - they take ages to set up and give varying results, so the gain might not equal the effort.
Time limit, 48 hours was good. Lets stick with that.
quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
Also, what should be done if a team breaks the rules? Should I be required to inform a faction leader if a member breaks their rules, but not the game rules? |
If a team member breaks the rules then any damage caused should be repaired, and the other teams should ignore (and be asked to ignore probably) the rule breaking. However, it would vary from case to case, and thats where your judgement call should be allowed to be made Drogue.
You should be required to inform the faction leader if a member breaks a teams rules only if they ask you to do so. The only instance I can think of would be unauthorised diplomacy but there may be others?
quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
I want people to discussed any and all rules they want, and appropriate punishments for breaking them. Also, how much of how a faction runs (from diplomacy, to democracy, to rogue members playing the turn) should be down to the faction, and how much should be decided now and enforced by me? Personally I favour faction self rule as much as possible, since all the factions have different RPs, and different styles of government and attitudes to things, but that's my opinion. |
Yeah, as much as possible the factions should set their own rule. Otherwise it's too much of a burden. I do think that there should be a core set of rules that all factions must follow established before hand, like a diplomatic protocol for example.
quote:
Originally posted by Drogue
Edit: Also, what of the pledge? Should we ask everyone to read and take it? Should we come up with our own, based on these rules, and fairplay? |
The pledge was a great idea IMHO. Everyone should be required to read and take it, although, as enigma pointed out, perhaps in a slightly amended form. With that in mind, we should definatly come up with our own, asap!
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Drogue
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Omnipresent conscience
Oct 2002
time: 05:36
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Most;y I agree with Chaunk, although I'd like to make a few points:
quote:
Originally posted by Chaunk
Yes, No, No (as in neither allowed - No black clicking/dragging at all.) I can't think of any others but I'm sure there are some more that we should think about. |
Hard to police the latter though. Personally I'm against the stockpile energy bug, because it aids a builder style (it doesn't work with units) and it stops people planning ahead, by putting their build queues into it. It's also easy to police. But it's not that big of a bug eitherway, so some may wish to use the planning and forgoe the extra ec anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Chaunk
The official diplomat(s) should do diplomacy. However, there must be adepate provision for them to be away, and perhaps we need a more water tight diplomatic protocol agreement.
Unauthorised diplomacy & turn playing should be ignored by the other factions. |
What if the unauthorised diplomacy is just talking about information, such as two members discussing their factions, and how they each saw their alliances playing out? I like the idea of letting the team decide what is fine and what isn't, and letting me police it though 
quote:
Originally posted by Chaunk
Turn simulators allowed - they take ages to set up and give varying results, so the gain might not equal the effort. |
I haven't seen one in action, so I don't know how well they work 
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Maniac
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Gent, Belgium
Jul 1999
time: 06:36
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My proposal:
- Total freedom in Design Workshop (upgrades anytime, during turn or on-field)
- Crawlers Upgrade anytime - OK (see Design Workshop, earlier)
- Retro-engineering - OK, except for using the probe rover chassis before discovering Doc. Mobility
- SE switches "quickies" forbidden - (obviously you can experiment to see what effect various SE choices have, but cannot change, play moves, then change back in the same turn)
- Stockpiling in Build Queues anytime - OK
- Multiple drops or orbital insertions using the right-click menu is forbidden. So is airdropping from outside a base/airbase, or after having moved (except on a magtube) using the same method.
- Base growth through Colony Pods - can be used to increase a base size up to the applicable pre-facility limit, but cannot be used to breach that limit without the facility being built.
- Psi (or any other) units cannot be assigned multiple waypoint patrol routes (to avoid instant demon boil bug)
- It is not allowed to set the home base (Control-h) for a unit to be the base of another faction when the diplomatic stance is pact. The unit will then require no support from either faction.
- No base trading with the AI. Extortion and gifting is allowed.
- It is not allowed to trade technology to AIs in exchange for credits if as a result the AI's energy reserves would go into the negative.
- Cannot change an infiltrated faction's workers to specialists, for example by using the F4 screen (or the bases icon of the F2 screen)
- Transparent Commlink Logs - It is forbidden for any player, whether playing the turn or just browsing the .sav, to open a .sav file (current or past) with a text reader program (eg word, wordperfect, notepad, etc etc) as the in-game commlink exchanges are embedded in text in the .sav file and can be read by anyone.
- It is forbidded for any player, whether playing the turn or just browsing any gamesave, to select left hand menu, then Game, then Resign. If hit accidentally, then immediately select the "No! Get back in there and fight" option. Selecting the "yes, time to slink away in shame" option triggers the game end scores and map expansion from the start (thereby revealing the start locations and limits of expansion of all seven factions).
- Communications - none till contact, or obtain commlink.
- Council notification - immediate broadcast to all players (Post in the thread and e-mail to all immediately by player who has called elections, citing candidates and votes. After each player's turn, post in the thread the running totals)
- If an aggressive probe action (anything except infiltration) is used on a faction you have a truce, treaty or pact with, you must select 'Declare Vendetta' in the dialog box that appears afterwards, and notify the victim of your transgression, unless you have received permission in advance. No notification is required in other cases.
- Demanding withdrawal to a human player through the menus rather than by negotiation is prohibited
- Bribing (or accepting bribes) for votes through the diplomatic channel box by clicking on the human faction leader's picture is prohibited (must be conducted by diplo message or e-mail)
- Multiple reloading of the game to try for different effects is forbidden. If a reload is necessary because of a game crash etc., an explanation should be posted to the turn administration thread.
- This bug is not allowed: Normally, a base must have an Aerospace Complex to be able to build orbital facilities. However, if an Aerospace Complex is the item currently being built, then orbital facilities can be added to the build queue. If production is switched to something other than the Aerospace Complex, the orbital facilities remain in the build queue and will be built without the need for an Aerospace Complex.
- This bug is not allowed: On the turn a terraformer completes its terraforming task, its "flag" will be grayed out indicating that it has moved. Clicking on and activating the terraformer will allow a new terraforming command to be issued to the terraformer with the correct number of turns to completion displayed. Clicking on and activating the terraformer again, cancelling its new orders; at this point, the terraformer will have regained one movement point. Using the more advanced technique of this bug is also disallowed. (Don't ask)
- Choppers are never allowed to attack bases.
- It is allowed to build a turn simulator, where you can test out battle results or strategic plans years in advance. It is also allowed to use parallel turns of the official game to test out AI diplomacy (with the exception that you can't accept AI world map offers or trades) or some innocent internal affairs orders (crawler & former movements etc). However it is NOT allowed to use the official game turns to play ahead by eg testing out battle orders, scouting with units, or for example moving your probe units to check the probe cost of something and only then decide whether or not you're going to probe it.
- It's not allowed to perform probe actions on a base that from one faction revolted to another human faction, unless the new owner decides and announces to keep the base. If the faction doesn't want the base that revolted to them, they have to gift it to an AI of their choice directly after receiving it if possible. If not possible, they have to starve the base and build a colony pod in order to destroy it, again as soon as possible (without hurrying). While disassembling the base, the new owner has the right though to sell off any facilities present in the base.
- It is not allowed to mind control with standard probe teams units or bases of any faction that runs a +3 or higher SE Probe rating.
- Due to the probe rollover bug, an enhanced probe team mind controlling a unit of a faction running +3 or higher Probe SE, would only have to pay half the credits it would have had to pay without the bug. To compensate for that bug, the probing faction needs to get rid of a sum of credits equal to the probe cost. This can be done by for example significantly overpaying for a hurry order, meaning the credits are wasted.
- It is not allowed to locate bases in unexplored tiles.
Last edited by Maniac on 22-06-2004 at 23:52
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:36
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quote:
I haven't seen one in action, so I don't know how well they work |
The one the Hive had worked very well. The only discrepencies were trade income (rather small anyway) and the tech cost.
The main problem was if every move in the turn wasn't planned right down to the very last click, it required 2-4 hours to reupdate the simulator.
quote:
It is forbidden for any player, whether playing the turn or just browsing the .sav, to open a .sav file (current or past) with a text reader program (eg word, wordperfect, notepad, etc etc) as the in-game commlink exchanges are embedded in text in the .sav file and can be read by anyone. |
With that, I think it would be better to not use the in-game commlink. I was discussing this with some other people and it turns out that you get a huge increase in the size of the gamefile due to the communications through the commlinks. It doesn't just store all in-game communication. It actually replicates all the in-game communication every turn. So a single message like "Morgans: hello there", may end up written in the save file 200 times by the time the game is finished.
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Kody
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If life's standing still and your soul's confused
Jun 2003
time: 14:36
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quote:
# This bug is not allowed: On the turn a terraformer completes its terraforming task, its "flag" will be grayed out indicating that it has moved. Clicking on and activating the terraformer will allow a new terraforming command to be issued to the terraformer with the correct number of turns to completion displayed. Clicking on and activating the terraformer again, cancelling its new orders; at this point, the terraformer will have regained one movement point. |
Maniac add on "Using the more advanced technique of this bug is also disallowed.", trust me on that, because your description doesn't cover the more advanced version.
quote:
If the faction doesn't want the base that revolted to them, they have to gift it to an AI of their choice directly after receiving it if possible.
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In my CMN editor thread you asked about gifting bases between human players, are you thinking of using that?
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Octavian X
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Probably buried under piles of Literature, Biology, or Government homework
Jan 2002
time: 23:36
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I'm not going to touch the game technical stuff, since I don't know how that works.
quote:
Out of game rules:
Should who can do diplomacy be an in game or a set decision?
What about unauthorised turn playing or diplomacy?
Should these be down to individual factions?
Turn simulators?
Time limit?
Anything else? |
Matters of diplomatic and turn responsibilities should be left to them team level. Of course, as a suitable punishment option, the teams should be presented with the option to permanently expel a member from the game, so as to keep things in check. A team decision is best to decide which actions taken by individuals are official or unoffical. It's better not to muck things up with 'international protocols' and whatnot.
Turn simulators and reasonable turn time limits (1-2 days early game, 2-3 later game or so) are fine in my book.
In general, though, leave the final decision-making and conflict resolution authority with the game staff. If we can, keep written rules to a bare minimum. The C3CISDG is my example as to what happens when you start to overregulate. That team game has spawned numerous ridculous rules, too many to allow much freedom of action or inter-team trust in.
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Impaler[WrG]
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Cheif Manufacturing Officer of Morgan Industires
May 2002
time: 22:36
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Oh Base Finding Bugs
As stated their are 2 versions, the low level and Advanced versions. As follows descriptions of each
Low method: Click in the blackness, if map dose not recenter you found a base.
Can only identify IF a base is located in a tile, not the faction that controls it or the bases name. Is incredibly Tedious, probly not worth the effort early in the game but late game with more bases its worthwial to combine with base radius pictures to completly map a factions territory. Cycon used this tecniqu (and much brainpower, blood sweat and teas) to make a complete map of PEACE territory.
Advanced method: click and drag off of a unit (any type) to creat a "move to" line. Drag that line all over the map to display the "move to (XX,XX) Distance X" when you pass over a base it will give the bases name whic invariably tell you the faction.
A much faster and easier method that reveals more information. In the early game it can be the equivilent of finding the Unity Radar Dish for all landing sites. Later on you can again create maps with much less blood sweat and tears involved.
Summary: Both methods are impossible to control directly, we can ofcorse prohibit them and look to see if anyone knows something they shouldn't. I dont see any point to alowing 1 but not the other as they are basicaly prodiving the same thing. My personal opinion is to alow them, the game already prodides through the Unity Crash sight a nearly equivelent prize the knowlage of starting location thus the use of this bug actualy levels the playing field for all teams. Its balanced for all types of strategies builder or momentum and I can make a good realism argument for it as follows.
The unity colonists are establishing themselves on an empty world, they obviously would use Radio to stay in contact with scout patrols and between bases. Short Wave Radio bouncing off the Ionosphere has an incredibly long range, it can easily cross the globe and anyone can listen in on it. Even if every transmition is coded the general location of an active tranmiting center (base) could easily be triangulated. Their would be enough uncoded or cracked codes to deduce which faction was which especialy if they have any information as to how the pods broke up off the unity and their subsiquent trajectories.
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Chaunk
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CEO of Morgan Industries, ACDG3
Apr 2002
time: 05:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Impaler[WrG]
Summary: Both methods are impossible to control directly, we can ofcorse prohibit them and look to see if anyone knows something they shouldn't. I dont see any point to alowing 1 but not the other as they are basicaly prodiving the same thing. My personal opinion is to alow them, the game already prodides through the Unity Crash sight a nearly equivelent prize the knowlage of starting location thus the use of this bug actualy levels the playing field for all teams. Its balanced for all types of strategies builder or momentum and I can make a good realism argument for it as follows. |
The problem behind that reasoning is that the unity wreckage is then worth much much less. Using exploits like this to "Level the playing field for all teams" is no arguement as the playing field is level if no one uses this exploit. It's knowledge that should only be gained by exploring or from the unity wreckage.
It also takes away much of the fun of the game. If you know that faction x is to your right, and likely to attack you if they find you early, then clearly, expansion to the left is the sensible course of action. In reality, no faction would know that, and would expand with the run of the land, not out of fear or optimism if the roles are reversed.
There's also a feeling of excitement when discovering where a new faction is, seeing if you can sneak a probe round to an undiscovered base etc. All lost with this bug.
I'm very much against it's use 
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19-06-2004 22:31
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