22-06-2004 19:43									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Having reading comprehension problems?: "WSJ made the claim that two people with similar names are likely the same person. Maybe it said that they weren't certain, but it was an absolutely ludicrous claim to make in the first place. I, myself, share my name (not just a "similar" one) with an Islamic terrorist."

Nope.

Just marveling that you can in good faith criticise an opinion article that goes out of its way to question its evidence in order to prove its journalistic integrity.

Then to hear the drivel spouted from you that the WSJ (oped or otherwis) is the journalistic equivalent of Newsmax.

Your a piece of work.

	22-06-2004 20:05									#62
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Isnt this also interesting (from the same article):


"As others have reported, at the time of the summit Shakir was working at the Kuala Lumpur airport, having obtained the job through an Iraqi intelligence agent at the Iraqi embassy."


I mean lets put aside the Fedeyeen lists for now. Is it routine for Iraqi intelligence agents to find jobs Iraqis living abroad?? In particular for ones they havent vetted? Surely they knew nothing about this Shakir, since he was an AQ associate, and Iraq was NOT collaborating with AQ. So they just get him a job anyway.

What gives?

	22-06-2004 20:31									#63
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Isnt this also interesting (from the same article): "As others have reported, at the time of the summit Shakir was working at the Kuala Lumpur airport, having obtained the job through an Iraqi intelligence agent at the Iraqi embassy." I mean lets put aside the Fedeyeen lists for now. Is it routine for Iraqi intelligence agents to find jobs Iraqis living abroad?? In particular for ones they havent vetted? Surely they knew nothing about this Shakir, since he was an AQ associate, and Iraq was NOT collaborating with AQ. So they just get him a job anyway. What gives?

Maybe he was, I don;t know, a cousin and benefited form nepotism?

Who cares. This is till at best a wild speculation, besides the fact they can;t even point to any sort of the Saddam government having full knowledge and control of actions. So this report remains just wild speculation that Feith's office threw out there. But good move on thier part given the play it has gained in certain circles.

	22-06-2004 20:53									#64
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Maybe he was, I don;t know, a cousin and benefited form nepotism? LOTM - I member of the Mukbarat had a cousin who was an AQ guy? A member of a an organization dedicated to the ultimate destruction of Saddam? Pretty sloppy vetting, Id say. And Id think that Mukbarat members would in general be expected to be careful about this sort of thing. Keep a low profile, at least. Who cares. This is till at best a wild speculation, besides the fact they can;t even point to any sort of the Saddam government having full knowledge and control of actions. So this report remains just wild speculation that Feith's office threw out there. But good move on thier part given the play it has gained in certain circles.

So its not collaboration unless someone that Saddam had full control over was in AQ? I dont think so.

	22-06-2004 20:59									#65
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark So its not collaboration unless someone that Saddam had full control over was in AQ? I dont think so.

Sorry, no bait. This is as of yet an unsubstantiated rumor with little worth other than war supporters trying to paint it as more than it is.

Though, as I always add, this war was not about terrorism today-it was an experiment long in planning. So double whatever.

	22-06-2004 21:10									#66
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Sorry, no bait. This is as of yet an unsubstantiated rumor with little worth other than war supporters trying to paint it as more than it is.

Sorry, that there was an Iraqi named Shakir who was part of AQ, who sat in at a meeting with 9/11 plotters, and who got his job with the help of someone from Iraqi intell is NOT rumor.

What it means is speculation. We speculate about alot of things here, and I see no reason not to speculate about this.

By the way, did the 9/11 commision say anything about Mohammed Attas trips to Prague from Germany, in May and June of 2000?

	22-06-2004 21:35									#67
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Let's not stop at linking Iraq to Al-Qaeda. We must go to war with the Czechs and Germans! Atta was in both countries before 9/11, so they must have ties to the terrorists! I mean, a few terrorists stayed in Iraq for a while, and that obviously means that Saddam was giving them billions of dollars. We must invade Prague because the Czechs are providing safe haven to murderers

	23-06-2004 01:21									#68
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quote: Nope. Just marveling that you can in good faith criticise an opinion article that goes out of its way to question its evidence in order to prove its journalistic integrity. Then to hear the drivel spouted from you that the WSJ (oped or otherwis) is the journalistic equivalent of Newsmax.

I don't care if it offers a caveat (I don't think it went "out of its way to offer it," if he didn't offer the caveat, it would be a complete and utter lie). The point is that it was a non-story. It shouldn't have been reported as evidence for a tie. Because then gullible people like apparantly this Republican commissioner look at it as real evidence.

It's sad that their Opeds are so craptastic given that it's otherwise a generally reliable paper.

quote: Your a piece of work.

Well, you're being a jackass.

quote: As others have reported, at the time of the summit Shakir was working at the Kuala Lumpur airport, having obtained the job through an Iraqi intelligence agent at the Iraqi embassy.

My understanding is that it was just some dude in the embassy, not an "Iraqi intelligence agent." In pretty much every source I've read it's "embassy contact," not an intelligence agent. Can you substantiate this what a more reliable source?

	23-06-2004 01:46									#69
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark Sorry, that there was an Iraqi named Shakir who was part of AQ, who sat in at a meeting with 9/11 plotters, and who got his job with the help of someone from Iraqi intell is NOT rumor. What it means is speculation. We speculate about alot of things here, and I see no reason not to speculate about this. By the way, did the 9/11 commision say anything about Mohammed Attas trips to Prague from Germany, in May and June of 2000?

I will say it for the last time- I do not care. After almost 3 years no one has shown anything more than possible coincidences here and there-and that includes an entire year of control of Iraq. It's like the damned Kennedy assasination! Some people have already made their minds up- as I said before the war, this invasion of Iraq was not about any AQ-Iraq links or WMD's those were excuses-its an experiement in American power, and those issues are nothing but annoing sideshows. If they help quick Bush out of office for screwing up his little invasion, great, the better.

But they are a side show nonetheless, and extremely annoying. So hopefully LoTM someone will answer your questions cause I won't be bothered.

	23-06-2004 01:46									#70
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Look at it this way. Anybody who says there is no link between Al Qaeda and Saddam Hussein's regime is a liar. A flat out little liar.

And I see Gepap is up to his usual bullshit. First off, this has nothing to do with power experimentation (utter garbage). It has to do with the liberation of a people and a removal of a dictator before it grown to problematic proportions.

	23-06-2004 01:49									#71
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I thought you were blissfully gone..I guess the sane time is over.

	23-06-2004 01:54									#72
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I thought you were blissfully gone..I guess the sane time is over.

When people have been lying so much on this forum I just had to come back and counter them. I hate liars and people who misrepresent the reality.

	23-06-2004 01:56									#73
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no proof fez. and if it did have something to do with removal of dictator, lets invade ZIMBABWE, where last I checked, people were starving and oppressed. and also lets invade North Korea, and the Sudan. You want us to invade those countries fez? cuz if you dont, then your logic, as usual, dont mean ****.

	23-06-2004 02:01									#74
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I will say it for the last time- I do not care. After almost 3 years no one has shown anything more than possible coincidences here and there-and that includes an entire year of control of Iraq. It's like the damned Kennedy assasination! Some people have already made their minds up

Yes. Some have.

Some of us are still trying to sift through evidence.

And yes, I gave the Kennedy assasination folks(one of whom was a pal at Stuy) the courtesy of discussing their concerns, in detail. Even 13 years after the event.

I dont know what Dubyas motives were, and neither do you. We dont have access to the inside of his head (even Woodward didnt) Cheney may have wanted to demonstrate American power, but its not clear that was his sole motive, or that it was what motivated everyone else in the admin.

Look, if you want to turn every discussion of every aspect of the Iraq war to Bushs or Cheneys motives, theres nothing I can do to stop you.

	23-06-2004 02:01									#75
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo When people have been lying so much on this forum I just had to come back and counter them. I hate liars and people who misrepresent the reality.

God, the irony is so damned thick that it is unbelievable.

Just keep your pollution of threads to a minimum.

	23-06-2004 02:01									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia no proof fez. and if it did have something to do with removal of dictator, lets invade ZIMBABWE, where last I checked, people were starving and oppressed. and also lets invade North Korea, and the Sudan. You want us to invade those countries fez? cuz if you dont, then your logic, as usual, dont mean ****.

No problem there. Go invade Zimbabwe. Please go on. We got better things to do then get involved in some part of the world that can't be democratized because natural resources don't exist. The DRC does have natural resources.. but the Europeans left it one big country extending across tribes who don't get along with each other (on paper a country but not really). And North Korea.. nuke that Kim Jong Il.. or I would till his regime collapses. It won't be too long. And Sudan.. well the Sudanese recently signed a peace treaty with the rebels in the South. Your logic is as usual arrogant and stupid, and you are drunk as usual (or is it high now?). Stop supporting little Hitlers like hussein and start supporting the US.

	23-06-2004 02:07									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo My understanding is that it was just some dude in the embassy, not an "Iraqi intelligence agent." In pretty much every source I've read it's "embassy contact," not an intelligence agent. Can you substantiate this what a more reliable source?

"Shakir got his airport job through a contact at the Iraqi Embassy. (Iraq routinely used its embassies as staging grounds for its intelligence operations; in some cases, more than half of the alleged "diplomats" were intelligence operatives.) The Iraqi embassy, not his employer, controlled Shakir's schedule"

Steve Hayes, The Weekly Standard.

	23-06-2004 02:09									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Giancarlo Stop supporting little Hitlers like hussein and start supporting the US.

Don't support the little hitlers... support the big hitlers!

	23-06-2004 02:10									#79
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quote: Originally posted by GePap I will say it for the last time- I do not care. After almost 3 years no one has shown anything more than possible coincidences here and there-and that includes an entire year of control of Iraq.

theyve shown years of regular contacts between Iraq and al qaeeda.

Proof. Maybe not. But enough to debunk the idea that Americans are idiots for thinking there was a connection.

	23-06-2004 02:10									#80
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So the guy can speculate given the realities in OTHER, thought he can;t even state that one in particular location. Hmm more than Half...so that's a 60-40 chance he might be correct, though only if that were true for that specific embassy. And even then, making the assumption this would be done solely as part of the person's intelleiegnce work and not other reasons..

Wow, a case built upon so many "maybe's". solid

	23-06-2004 02:13									#81
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quote: Originally posted by GePap So the guy can speculate given the realities in OTHER, thought he can;t even state that one in particular location. Hmm more than Half...so that's a 60-40 chance he might be correct, though only if that were true for that specific embassy. And even then, making the assumption this would be done solely as part of the person's intelleiegnce work and not other reasons.. Wow, a case built upon so many "maybe's". solid

er plus the fact that when he was being held in Jordan, Iraq specifically asked for him back. Was that his visa issuing cousin again?

	23-06-2004 02:15									#82
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WSJ is a right wing rag.

	23-06-2004 02:18									#83
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And?

That whole case on based on an immense amount of asusmptions.

So Iraq wanted this guy right back- maybe they wanted to interrogate him themselves once they learned what he was up to? Who knows, but right now I can give as much "proof" of that as you can. Meaning it add 0 to the debate.

Hence it is irrelevant, just as quoting the distance of mercury to the sun is irrelevant, as it add nothing to the debate.

	23-06-2004 02:33									#84
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quote: "Shakir got his airport job through a contact at the Iraqi Embassy. (Iraq routinely used its embassies as staging grounds for its intelligence operations; in some cases, more than half of the alleged "diplomats" were intelligence operatives.) The Iraqi embassy, not his employer, controlled Shakir's schedule"

Yet another strike against the WSJ article, which made the apparantly half-assed assumption that the connection's an intelligence agent. And more than half being intel people in some cases, doesn't say a single thing about the likelyhood of this connection being with intel. Extremely shitty journalism.

As for why the Iraqis wanted him back, that's common practice when a state has a citizen of another state detained. And given that he's connected with the embassy in some fashion, I don't see how it's unreasonable to expect them to be unusally insistent on this point.

	23-06-2004 02:37									#85
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And? That whole case on based on an immense amount of asusmptions. So Iraq wanted this guy right back- maybe they wanted to interrogate him themselves once they learned what he was up to? Who knows, but right now I can give as much "proof" of that as you can. Meaning it add 0 to the debate. Hence it is irrelevant, just as quoting the distance of mercury to the sun is irrelevant, as it add nothing to the debate.

anything that doesnt provide proof adds nothing to the debate?

May I ask for your "proof" of Bush motives?

	23-06-2004 02:38									#86
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quote: No problem there. Go invade Zimbabwe. Please go on. We got better things to do then get involved in some part of the world that can't be democratized because natural resources don't exist. The DRC does have natural resources.. but the Europeans left it one big country extending across tribes who don't get along with each other (on paper a country but not really). And North Korea.. nuke that Kim Jong Il.. or I would till his regime collapses. It won't be too long. And Sudan.. well the Sudanese recently signed a peace treaty with the rebels in the South. Your logic is as usual arrogant and stupid. Stop supporting little Hitlers like hussein and start supporting the US.

and what makes a country democratized? resources? Taiwan doesnt have natural resources, but its a democracy. wrong again.

and how many times have peace treaties been broken in Africa? they arnt worth the paper they are printed on.

	23-06-2004 02:38									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia and what makes a country democratized? resources? Taiwan doesnt have natural resources, but its a democracy. wrong again. and how many times have peace treaties been broken in Africa? they arnt worth the paper they are printed on.

Well perhaps an educated populace aswell.

Africa is a basket case. Iraq doesn't have to be one.

	23-06-2004 02:39									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Sava WSJ is a right wing rag.

hmmmm.... Sava doesn't like it, I must be right.

	23-06-2004 02:41									#89
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark anything that doesnt provide proof adds nothing to the debate? May I ask for your "proof" of Bush motives?

Well, lets see.. I look at the men Bush put in position of power, specifically Cheney, Wolfie, Rummy, and so forth, and their histories. Then you look what they wrote and said. And you find that these men wanted to invade iraq since 1998, or 92 in Wolfie's case. Then you take the president's quotes about how he takes info in, that he does not get his info from the press, but from his circle of trusted advisors. Then you take the small anecdotes form the likes of Clark and O'Neil and what I see is an admin. full of people pushing for an invasion of Iraq being the ones who have the ear of the president and then I get some first hand quips.

That is a sight better info and a far more solid base than what that WS article gives about its claims, or at least i think so.

	23-06-2004 02:46									#90
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quote: Originally posted by GePap And you find that these men wanted to invade iraq since 1998, or 92 in Wolfie's case.

as an experiment in American power. I'll go check the PNAC piece again myself, but Im quite sure it rehearsed the arguments about the threat from Saddam to the US and the region.

Im also dont see how Bush getting info from his circle speaks to HIS motives.