22-06-2004 06:59									#1
	Wonder Idea Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I didn't see a spot for it, so I'll start a thread here.

Its something I suggested in the list of ideas for Civ3 way back in the day, though I think I may have added it a bit late, I dunno.

Anyways, have a wonder called the Trans-Continental Railroad (or Trans-Siberian Railroad if you prefer) and upon building it all roads within your borders automatically upgrade to railroad.

	22-06-2004 10:44									#2
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sounds chill.

	22-06-2004 10:45									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

less US centric
pentagon -> dept of defense

	22-06-2004 20:26									#4
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A better idea on the effects of the Transcontinental Railroad: All roads in your territory automatically upgrade to railroads AND all workers henceforth who build roads/railroads INSIDE your territory will construct them in only one turn regardless of your normal worker rate of speed.

Personally I dislike Wonders that give you an instant-acting benefit and then give nothing later on.

	23-06-2004 02:23									#5
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the worker thing might be a bit too powerful though. Maybe just have it upped slightly, or just stick with the one-time thing. I dunno. I think it'd be a big benefit to having instant rails.

	23-06-2004 03:31									#6
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Sounds cool. Perhaps you could make it so that building rails has a reduced cost, or, if you use the rail depot idea I had, make it so it grants a free rail depot structure in every city.

As others have said, massed road/rail everywhere looks ugly, and this would encourage teh problem if youre not careful.

	02-07-2004 00:15									#7
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An idea for wonders could be "dark wonders". History is replete with things that shouldn't have happened.

Example:
"The Inquisition", if built in a monothiestic civ, would grant a 25% combat bonus vs. units from a polythiestic civ, and lower the diplomatic relations between the builder and the polythiestic civs.

Or:
"The Holocaust", if built in a socialist civ, finds the smallest minority in most (all?) of your cities, and turns them into special workers (laborers, researchers, farmers, what have yous, except they work twice as hard as regular special workers) and kills them off at a rate of 10% a turn. Democratic civs WILL declare war on you if you build this, though. (e.g., the socialist Zulu builds the Holocaust, they have small amounts of Aztec citizens in many of their cities, and over a period of 10 turns they're wiped out, but do twice the amount of work before dying out)

	02-07-2004 00:35									#8
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I think that a "Holocaust" wonder is a really, really bad idea, on many levels. PR nightmare, but also it isn't really historically accurate in many ways. One, the holocaust was kept hidden; two, even if it had been known, most Americans might well of wanted to stay out of the war anyhow (cursed American isolationism!)

And why the railing on the socialists? I think any country of decent people would want such killings stopped. It is hard to define such deceny and harder the willingness to combat such atrocities. As such, the wonder just wouldn't work.

Inquisitions work with all religions as well, just the most famous western example if the Spanish Inquisition. I this is probably a workable idea but it needs to be generalized a bit more (and the 25% bonus is a bit overpowered).

-Drachasor

	02-07-2004 02:24									#9
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They have the crusades, I don't think all our Moorish posters enjoy that!

	02-07-2004 04:11									#10
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I would like to see more wonder-like things based on achievments in the game.

For example, how about rather than having a city build the Transcontinental Railroad, the game recognizes the furthest 2 cities you have apart on your largest continent, and by connecting those 2 cities by rail gives you a notice that you've completed the Transcontinental Railroad and you get a commerce/happiness boost for a period of time?

	02-07-2004 05:36									#11
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I've thought about the same thing with Magellan's Voyage, ixnay. Whether it would be the first civ to send a ship all the way across the map or the first to have a "belt" uncovered on its map is up for debate, but I like the general idea.

It makes the decision to go for a wonder a little more involved than just whether or not to dedicate a city to it.

Japher, they have the Knights Templar. The crusade was in Civ2. Not a huge distinction, but...

	02-07-2004 08:22									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Japher, they have the Knights Templar. The crusade was in Civ2. Not a huge distinction, but...

Yeah, but does the wonder give you a bonus against Arab Civs? In fact, does it give you any combat bonus per se? In this sense it is totally divorced from the historical context, and this is an important sense.


Hmm, that idea ixnay had about event wonders is very nice though.

-Drachasor

	02-07-2004 21:01									#13
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I like Ixnay's idea. It reminds me of how building certain wonders, dependent on civ, can give you a leader, or how you need to have so many armies to build the pentagon, etc. I think more contingencies placed on building a wonder should be placed, and some these contingencies should be based on actions. Like you must win x number of battles and capture y number of towns before you qualify to build Art of War, you must have been the first to discover y number of new techs before building the great library, etc... Excellent idea ix'...

As for the Trans. RR, there should be a minimum tile distance set. What if my continent is only 5 tiles wide, and yours is 20?

	03-07-2004 09:38									#14
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The original idea sounds cool but the effect is too powerful IMHO.

	04-07-2004 02:59									#15
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Since I don't think that civ IV should be that radical of a change from Civ III, maybe only a few wonders should implement Ixnay's idea?

	04-07-2004 03:10									#16
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Do you know how much playtesting would be required to get the balance right for something like this?
And we know how lax firaxis is with Playtesting...

	04-07-2004 09:26									#17
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quote: Originally posted by ixnay I would like to see more wonder-like things based on achievments in the game. For example, how about rather than having a city build the Transcontinental Railroad, the game recognizes the furthest 2 cities you have apart on your largest continent, and by connecting those 2 cities by rail gives you a notice that you've completed the Transcontinental Railroad and you get a commerce/happiness boost for a period of time?

So then what sort of requirement would have to be satisfied for a civ to get this and the others to not do so?

To answer my own question, perhaps a critical number of tiles RRed, or for other Wonders, a critical number of improvements built. But then againall you need do is be a bit ahead in getting things that will benefit you anyway - in the Civs and SMAC until now a Wonder/SP has cost you a considerable amount of time and resources that could be well used for other things, as WELL as some kind of prerequisite. I like the idea, but there would have to be some serious rebalancing for you to get wonders without putting in a whole lot of time and resources you could end up wasting - that's the risk of Wonders, and without the risk it's not quite the same thing.

Perhaps if the WOnders all had lesser effects...?

	04-07-2004 13:50									#18
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One (of the few) good and original things that CTP2 had were the Feats of Wonder. If you did certain things in the actual game, like sailing around the globe, or defeating a larger empire, then you got some sort of bonus. This sounds like something like that, and if there were something I'd like Firaxis to take from the game, it would be something similar to that

	04-07-2004 15:14									#19
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quote: Or: "The Holocaust", if built in a socialist civ, finds the smallest minority in most (all?) of your cities, and turns them into special workers (laborers, researchers, farmers, what have yous, except they work twice as hard as regular special workers) and kills them off at a rate of 10% a turn. Democratic civs WILL declare war on you if you build this, though. (e.g., the socialist Zulu builds the Holocaust, they have small amounts of Aztec citizens in many of their cities, and over a period of 10 turns they're wiped out, but do twice the amount of work before dying out)

On the CtP2 feats, yes they were unique and an excellent idea. Sailing around the world got you +1 move for all boats for 25 Turns. Building Theatres in 8 cities before anyone else got +5 Happiness for 15 Turns or discovering Gunpowder first everyones city walls were less effective against you for 25 Turns. There were many others.

	04-07-2004 16:48									#20
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Prerequisite wonders...
I like the idea as it stands, but wouldn't it get just a little frustrating to prep a few turns for the wonder, when someone beats you to it?

BTW don't go for the 'first time' feats.
That just means whoever's in 1st position stays in 1st position and PWNs the crap out of everyone else - endlessly frustrating to balance in Multiplayer.

	04-07-2004 18:12									#21
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Civ4 shouldn't be timid about implementing the good ideas from CtP. Action triggered short term wonder events being one of them. And for those who dislike all things CtP - it isn't really that different to expanding the idea of golden ages and scientific ages of Civ3.

	04-07-2004 21:52									#22
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I agree with you - just that the action-triggered events shouldn't always be the FIRST player to do something.

If you reward everyone's first global voyage, it's a lot easier than trying to balance the game so those who miss the first few event wonders can still catch up later.

	04-07-2004 22:04									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova Prerequisite wonders... I like the idea as it stands, but wouldn't it get just a little frustrating to prep a few turns for the wonder, when someone beats you to it?

Make the pre-requisite wonders small wonders.

	04-07-2004 23:10									#24
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That would fix the frustration, but someone will inevitably come up with a bright idea for a Major pre-req wonder.

I suppose if you made the prereqs sensible, like armies for a national defence grid, then it would work.
If the prepping stuff is useful anyway, it won't be frustrating.

Anyone ever beeline to Adaptive Economics in SMAX, only to lose the PEG? Man, the Secret Project is -the- reason to go off the beeline. Someone takes that, you've just wasted lots of lab points.

	05-07-2004 00:33									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Enigma_Nova I agree with you - just that the action-triggered events shouldn't always be the FIRST player to do something. If you reward everyone's first global voyage, it's a lot easier than trying to balance the game so those who miss the first few event wonders can still catch up later.

I agree with this on action wonders. They should be available to everyone with one caveat. If your technology advances to a certain point then it should eliminate the bonuses you get, or if you haven't done it, make it so you can't do it. Afterall, sailing around the world in a destroyer is nothing special.

Perhaps there should be extra bonuses for doing it early or with a special unit. If you manage to sail around the world in a tireme then you deserve something.

-Drachasor

	05-07-2004 00:49									#26
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Have all action wonders available to everyone, just reduce the benefit from them for each subsequent person who achieves it.

If you are the first person to go around the world you get 1 movement point for 30 turns. The second person gets it for 25 turns. Third person for 20 turns. All others for 15 turns. It then promotes continued competition for second and third place.

	05-07-2004 01:29									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Dauphin Have all action wonders available to everyone, just reduce the benefit from them for each subsequent person who achieves it. If you are the first person to go around the world you get 1 movement point for 30 turns. The second person gets it for 25 turns. Third person for 20 turns. All others for 15 turns. It then promotes continued competition for second and third place.

I always thought the Manhattan Project should've been a small wonder. Making it an "action" wonder as above sounds good too.

	05-07-2004 13:13									#28
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Continued competition for second place makes sense.
...
How many civs are on a map total? If the number is more than 9, competition for 3rd place makes sense, too.