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Send 9 of our Knights to Parthemunde?
This poll is closed. |
| Yes, send them; 21 knights at Ruhrpott |
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14 |
43.75% |
| No, don't send any to Parth; send all 30 to Ruhrpott |
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18 |
56.25% |
| Total: |
32 voters |
100% |
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by BigFree
You've said nothing to address the point that someone, who really wants a certain outcome, would lie in order to get the poll swung one way or the other. I know of no system in the world that allows a person to change their mind on a vote without having everyone re-vote.
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BF, it's is utterly illogical that someone would LIE to change the results of a poll. If a poll is going against you, it is likely that you already voted NO. Thus, lying would change your vote to a yes making it counterproductive. If a poll is going in favor, it is likely that you already voted YES. Lying, again, would be counterproductive to your objective. 
Assuming for an instant that Arnelos is lying about his change of vote, how does he stand to benefit? He voted in favor and the poll was actually winning at the moment he changed his mind. Lying did not help his cause
Think a little before making illogical assumptions 
quote:
Let's say you had someone who had to take leave after they voted here, but then they changed their mind as well. But, they are unable to voice that change because they are not around during that time period. So, one person can change his while another cannot.
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So? Then this poll isn't valid at all since 2/3 of our membership, for whatever reason, isn't here and isn't voting.
quote:
This is supposed to be a Democracy. Democracies don't allow the recasting of singular votes. |
Elecction in real life are done once all sides have exhuasted their arguments and thus there is no excuse for incomplete information to the populace. As you can see, this is not the case here. Aren't you glad that our "cowardice" at least prompted the creation of the Red Team thread and thus fostered a more in-depth and objective of GWT's capabilities and probable response? Do you not think our intelligence leading up to the invasion right now is far better off thanks to these discussions and polls?
The Red Team thread wasn't done until well after this poll started, that alone is reason enough to allow for a change of votes since the people that voted at first were not in possession of the information that we have since obtained. I really deplore how the people who are against re-polling, who are against of changing votes, when these are the things that make our team far more capable and knowledgable, instead of clinging to rigid procedures which only serve to hamper our decision-making process.
-MZ
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Master Zen
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of naughty
Jan 2003
time: 23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Arnelos
I also resent the implication you make with your note about lying. My initial reaction was an honest reaction to what I saw (and still see) as the "OMFG, THE SKY IS FALLING!!!111!!" reaction I saw and see from E_T and company. I sided with you and Togas in believing that they were irrationally fearing the chances of an obtainable goal.
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Arnelos, believe it or not but most of us who started this new debate didn't do it from a "sky is falling" argument like you so claim, but a legitimate and rational suspicion that given the latest events with CGN the Parthe strike was bound to failure. That you perceived such an attitude, in part due to the parallel and passionate reaction from those in favor, does not mean that we came up with the argument out of the blue and did it just to scare people, if you read the initial posts that both Kloreep and I made in these two threads, you will see that they were based on practically the exact same reasons most people, including yourself, now are against.
quote:
What I then did was, rather than blindly run out here calling people cowards or attacking the people calling people cowards as idiots or any other such disgusting argument.... was to actually take a critical look at the issues involved and attempt to really determine the value of the Parthe strike versus the drop in probability of success for the Ruhr strike.
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But see, that was pretty obvious, at least for some of us, even before the Red Team thread. Pyramids to a team which already has its big cities at or close to size 12 does not seem to me worthwhile to even risk the possibility of the Ruhr strike failing, much less the Colossus to a team which is already hopelessly behind in techs. Moreso, the strength of GWT's army had already been calculated 6 turns ago and it is quite easy to estimate their increase in strength since then. Then the fact that CGN is no longer a factor for GWT's keeping troops in the south and the answer was plainly simple to us, or at least it was to me (and these are the points I argued in the "ambitious" thread): that GWT now has a VERY credible chance of thwarting our Ruhr strike and that we would need all the knights we can to pull it off.
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The result of my investigation of that is that I have been forced to change my opinion. That reflects an honest willingness to do what is best for the country, even if it involves admitting that my earlier impression was wrong.
It worries me when I see so many of our leadership, most particularly including yourself, seemingly having lost sight of the fact that it's not important whether YOU are right or wrong, but whether what we do for the team is right. Frankly, I'm disapponted in both sides of this argument in that regard - people are making up their minds far too quickly, closing them and going on the attack rather than actually investigating things. If this continues, it will be our undoing. |
And here I totally disagree.
No matter how passionately either side has argued in favor or against it, I truly doubt that they have done it merely for the sake of proving themselves right or wrong. While I have found the ways BF and Togas have expressed themselves during the past couple of days totally repulsive and immature, I have no doubt in my mind that they share the same love of this team and same goal of winning that we all do, above and beyond being right or wrong. Our means might differ, but the ends are the same.
-MZ
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BigFree
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Acampo, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
BF, it's is utterly illogical that someone would LIE to change the results of a poll. If a poll is going against you, it is likely that you already voted NO. Thus, lying would change your vote to a yes making it counterproductive. If a poll is going in favor, it is likely that you already voted YES. Lying, again, would be counterproductive to your objective.
Assuming for an instant that Arnelos is lying about his change of vote, how does he stand to benefit? He voted in favor and the poll was actually winning at the moment he changed his mind. Lying did not help his cause
Think a little before making illogical assumptions
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You missed the boat on this one MZ. Completely missed it. It's in NY and you're in Sydney.
Hwo many votes do you see? How many different people have voted in this poll? Is it possible that (just for the sake of argument only) Arnelos voted No already in the poll, while reporting that he voted Yes? Thus getting someone else's Yes vote change to a No.
Again, I'm not saying he lied. I'm just saying that your antilogic does not apply here. So, to you I say: Engage your brain before you put your mouth in motion. :P
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:36
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quote:
Originally posted by BigFree
I have every reason to believe they don't have 20-25 Ansar in Ruhrpott. It makes no sense whatsoever for them to have them there at this time. Having the capability and actually having it be true are two different things.
It's like you want to bet 30 on Black and I want to bet 21 on Black and 9 on 23 Black only that one has to assume that Black is almost a foregone conclusion. (Roulette analogy for those confused)
If they DO have that many there then there's a spy in our midst. And even then 30 Knights won't take Ruhrpott. |
BF, that may very well be the case, we might get there and find little Opposition, for the first turn. Then again, our landing group could get wiped out before we know it. OR, they could still be so heavily damaged and even with the 9 other Group B knights, still not be enough to take out the FP.
But, until we do land (if we even have a spot to land on) and open the next save, and make our attack, will we be able to say one thing or the other about what HAS happened. Of cource, then we have to get through to the next turn, to evacuate.
The things is, all of this would not have been nessisary (i.e. the repoll) if CGN hadn;t had been such idiots!! if anything, place the blaim solely on them.
They could have gotten atleast 2 of those 4 Muskets, via water, to Micco to boister it's defences. They could have build 1 to 2 Cats instead of that one Galley, in Micco, to help with the defence of the city. The thing is, they could have done several vary smart things, knowing that we needed them to keep GWT's army down there for as long as they could have. Shoot, they could have even asked our advise on several things, over a long time, just to help get things built faster for their final stand.
The thing is, if they had stood, for 1 to 2 more turns and wiped out much of GWT's Offensive Power in the SOD, then the very real possibility of would have been that ALL of the different strikes would have worked out as planned.
So, if you want to place any blaim, I suggest that you look to CGN and not here.
E_T
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Adrian Hon
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Living in Perplex City
Nov 2001
time: 05:36
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Though I hate to say it, given the arguments here and the fact that CGN has folded *and* the increased estimate of GWT's force, I would like my vote to be changed from Yes to No. While there have been severe disagreements here, I feel that each side has put its arguments across extremely well and this is perhaps the first issue I have *ever* changed my mind twice on.
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OliverFA
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Leeds, UK
Sep 2002
time: 06:36
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Please, forgive me if my comment is inapropiate, but as a lurker that is just browsing the threads, it looks like the decission are polled and repolled until the "right" result is got. That´s a curious way of understanding democracy...
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E_T
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Orlando, Florida
Mar 2001
time: 00:36
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OliverFA, That really isn;t the case.
When we had gone and started to play this last turn, the first time, we (the consuls present, myself and other members) were having great misgivings over the most recent event and it;s effect on our strikes.
There weere several times, leading up to this turn, when I was asked point blank, when was the "failsafe" point for the Parth Strike.
Before we knew that there wasn;t a sea channel, the 2 boats would have already been too far to recall (the first poll).
Then with the delay in the strike (due to no sea channel), we found that they would be delayed by 3 turns from the original estimate time of landing, so we held the second poll, to see if we still wanted to contunue with that. So, that was justified in the fact that our plan had changed and people who might have voted for the original strike, might change their minds because of the increases time involved (that the strike would get there when they might expect it and not several turns sooner).
Then it was realized that because of the delay, we could add more units to the Parth Strike, giving it a better chance of success. So, that last poll, dealind with the number of units was also justified.
Then, this last turn, the last turn of "failsafe" for the Parth Strike to have the ability to turn around and join the Main FP strike, as part of either group. On this turn, we found out the Increadable blunder that CGN had pulled, with Disbamnding their last city and then putting 7 Muskers out on the open terrain, like lambs left for the hungry wolves.
And Increadable blunder that actually gives GWT a greater chance for a GL. AN Increadable blunder, after we had told them that we needed them to do as much as they could, to keep GWT's army as occupided as possible. An Increadable Blunder, that makes every part of the Original Ruhrpott- Beta/Gamma (CFC) - Parth strikes in complete jeparty (sp).
The whole requirement for those 3 strikes to work and to work in concert:
1) was for CGN to hold out for as long as they could
2) for CGN to blunt enough of GWT's Army to have them move more units to the south. This would have had them Turtle in their last city and would have been over 2 to 4 more turns time (when we first start landing).
3) Items 1 and 2 would have then left GWT will a smaller defencive group up there, so that we could risk sending a smaller group to wreck havoc.
4) the Fact that GWT would have their Many Fast movers and most of their slow movers in the deep CGN south would have allowed CFC to get in, take Beta and cut the road network, so as to slow the Ansars down quite a bit, so that we could wreck more havoc on the FP area and help draw more of any of their eastern forces to us and CFC.
5) and then, around this time, we would have the Parth strike land and with everything else occuring, would then succeed in it's objective.
As you can see, a kind of house of cards and CGN's increadable blunder took the foundation card right off of the stack and the plan essentially collapsed. At least it didn;t happen the turn before, because of it had, the possibility of the FP strike having any success diminishes rapidly.
So, any body can see that this hasn't been an issue, that has been repolled and repolled, to get the results that someone wanted. It's been an issue, that the curcomestances have changed over time, that they had a point of no return and thereby, would have really been criminal, NOT to have new polls about, as things have changed over there and in what we do know has changed. If we hadn;t had kept up with things and just blindly went forward to a possible doom, that would have been the act of a leadership that didn't care about this game and our place in it and would have been criminally neglegent to have not have repolled.
E_T
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:36
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Addressing OliverFA and other concerned members:
I do not agree with this poll result and the final Consuls' decision on Parthe, but to repoll to gauge the teams' opinions was fully proper in this situation, IMO.
We had several new pieces of information not known at the time of the last polls - CGN rolling over and the extra 22 GWT units modelled by at least one Consul. These are both very concerning, as they negatively impacted on our plans. Although I do not agree that they constituted enough of a change to make us change our plans, I agree that they required serious consideration, and I can see that many would be swayed by these new tidbits of info. And although this poll was not official (few are where the final judgement lies with the Triumvirate of Consuls we entrust with our decisions), it was vital to debate, listen, attempt to persuade and then poll on the active members' thoughts. The Consuls ended up making a more than fair decision, IMO. We may differ on the end result and the arguments for and against, but there was more than enough 'due process', if you like.
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Zen
whoa whoa whoa, one moment here.
I hope I'm misinterpreting this statement but are you implying that we would have stepped over the results of this poll just because it was "unofficial"? Because if so, we wouldn't have even made this poll in the first place since 2 of the 3 consuls were already against the strike. Moreso, please indicate me where the consuls have taken a final decision different than that which the polls dictated, be it official or not. You can see from the chat logs I posted in the "play the turn thread" that ALL THREE consuls were quite willing to go after Parthe given the tendencies of the poll at the moment before I had to leave and thus couldn't play the save and in fact, reprimanded any suggestions that we use our right to overrule it.
When the people speak, we listen, period, even when we think they're wrong. That's what democracy is all about. Ultimately the people who took the wrong decisions end up accounting for their mistakes. |
* MrWhereItsAt grits his teeth and does the unthinkable - quotes scripture
quote:
Originally posted in the InfoCentre
The Consuls have the authority to play the game.
The Consuls have the authority to make final game decisions, but must act within the boundaries of the law.
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I know, as I was a Consul myself, that polls like this are not binding in any way. They are there to gauge the team's opinions. If it was felt the poll was in error, new info came to light, if there was not enough time, the poll was too close... or a million other reasons, the Consuls could have chosen to go the opposite route to the final result of this poll. That is the power granted to the Consuls.
Yes of COURSE the Consuls take into account the will of the team, I have said that recently. But if they had to abide by poll results such as this then there would be a lot of back-CoCs we'd need to start, and that would also raise a furore over the fact that following the results of this poll contradicts the earlier ones that had the differing result.
Consuls make the best decision they can at the time, taking into account what they think is best as well as what the team has said. They do not always do exactly what the team has voted for - we had that discussion a long time ago, and resolved to give the Consuls a few extra powers to keep them game moving efficiently. That is why we must vote for Consuls very carefully.
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24-06-2004 23:31
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