24-06-2004 05:33									#1
	Kiss Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Keep It Simple Stupid.

Soren won't include massive and complex new systems in Civ 4. Things will be similar to Civ 3 and there will be a few changes that fit within how the current engine already functions.

Keep that in mind when you're doing your brainstorming. Don't go overboard when it comes to new features, like religion, civics, combat, etc.

The most useful suggestions for Firaxis (and the ones that are most likely to be implimented) are ones that fit within the realm of possibility.

	24-06-2004 18:16									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'd add - don't confuse simplicity and clarity/transparency.

We can call it "the MoO III observation".

Models can be pretty complex as long as all the variables and their relationships that compose them are obvious to the player.

Causality has to be absolutely clear.

If I remove one worker from the fields, I lose two food and get two luxuries.

If I build a temple I make two people content.

If I have more unhappy people than happy they riot.

And so on. Most Sid prefixed Civilization titles so far have been doing this rather well, unlike MoO III and some other games in the genre.

	24-06-2004 19:14									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, we are saying what we want in Civ4, and that is some complex models. But indeed, they should be easy to control. and the AI should be able to use them. SMAC was the most complex Civ-game, and the complexity worked against it - the AI was a complete pushover as long as you didn't give it huge starting advantages.

But us hardcore vents don't want to see Civ 4 concepts made less complex than in Civ 3. It's just that for stuff like religion, civics, etc.,, the interface has to be clean (and clear) enough to control everything and give understandable messages on what's going on.

	24-06-2004 22:02									#4
	Got spare money?

Soren, while (I think) an excellent choice for the designer of Civ IV, isn't really a guarantee for its complexity.

It is he who removed much of it to help AI.

So this announcement of Civics and Religion sounds more like "more simple concepts" instead of "concepts more complex" to me.

	24-06-2004 22:52									#5
	Remove this text

I'll still be satisfied even with not-too complex concepts as long as the game has a good AI at least as in Civ 3. Though both are preferred .

	24-06-2004 23:10									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yeah, Soren's not big on complexity. He alluded to the fact that he likes the current level of complexity (in Civ 3). He said for every feature added, one would be removed. So even if its clean and easy to work with, I don't think many complex systems will make it into Civ 4.

Just being a realist.

	25-06-2004 03:10									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I've been comparing games in the genre ... it may sound surprising at first but the "concept space" of the entire genre is not all that big.

Sucessfull new concepts are what, one per game?

It's quite a challenge to come up with something really unique, so refinement (read: complicating) of old concepts comes quite natural, and is quite common.

In my opinion, the latest really great addition to the genre is "Strategic Resources" concept, and it is implemented excellently in both Civ III and GalCiv.

	29-06-2004 13:21									#8
	Re: Kiss Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Trip Soren won't include massive and complex new systems in Civ 4.

We say what we want, and they implement what they feel like.

If Civ 4 is not something we like, we will just vote with our wallets.

Simple, no?

	29-06-2004 14:45									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Except for the slight problem that we won't be able to tell whether we like what they implemented or not unless we have first played the game. That may involve buying the game.

	29-06-2004 15:46									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Looking at the list of features and playing the demo should do.

	29-06-2004 20:16									#11
	Put an end to popups!

If there is a demo.

	29-06-2004 20:44									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

and if we people who spend so much time poring over forms to get a whiff of civ4 can resist not buying it the moment it comes out... activision suckered me into ctp...

	30-06-2004 01:34									#13
	Support Apolyton

with all the info pouring out into the forums, I am quite sure that most of us will more or less have a "taste" for the game from comments with other people even if they haven't bought it yet.

	30-06-2004 02:32									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Lord_Davinator and if we people who spend so much time poring over forms to get a whiff of civ4 can resist not buying it the moment it comes out... activision suckered me into ctp...

You spent too much time at the wrong forum...if you'd been at the SMAC forum at the time, you'd know the truth about CTP

	30-06-2004 03:42									#15
	Tired of ads?

If you want to make Civ4 more difficult, - IE more of a challenge - stop reading these boards.

	30-06-2004 05:27									#16
	Re: Re: Kiss Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger We say what we want, and they implement what they feel like.

Yeah, except we are such a small demographic that they can easily ignore we as long as it still sells well.

	30-06-2004 05:36									#17
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Has Soren said anything about the AI yet?

	30-06-2004 13:23									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Nothing so far.

	30-06-2004 13:39									#19
	Re: Re: Re: Kiss Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Trip Yeah, except we are such a small demographic that they can easily ignore we as long as it still sells well.

You don't understand the value of influence, then.

	30-06-2004 13:40									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Lord_Davinator and if we people who spend so much time poring over forms to get a whiff of civ4 can resist not buying it the moment it comes out...

Why not? I didn't buy MoO 3.

Sure, I spent my time there blasting away at the game, still

	30-06-2004 13:44									#21
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Kiss Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger You don't understand the value of influence, then.

You think you weenies actually have sway over the mob?

Bwahahahaaaaaa!

	30-06-2004 13:49									#22
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Kiss Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Jack your own thread with spam, be my guest

	30-06-2004 13:51									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Uhhhh.... Hmmm....







Civ 4 isn't going to be overly complex everyone!

Happy?

	30-06-2004 15:45									#24
	Re: Re: Re: Kiss Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Trip Yeah, except we are such a small demographic that they can easily ignore we as long as it still sells well.

Are you sure? CtP II failed to sell well after initial bad reviews from the community and reviewers...

	30-06-2004 19:43									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Well, that and a lot of people were unhappy with the originally CTP and the developers weren't claiming CTP was Civ3 anymore.

	01-07-2004 05:27									#26
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Kiss Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by VetLegion Are you sure? CtP II failed to sell well after initial bad reviews from the community and reviewers...

Yeah, but how much of that has to do with us specifically?

	01-07-2004 09:11									#27
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse If there is a demo.

After the game is released if at all. Too many companies have shot themselves in the foot with pre-release demos. Imagine what a MOO3 demo before the release would have done to already weak sales. I think many of us bought the game out of MOO loyalty and/or the over-hyped previews. A demo would have been a killer. I'm sure this would apply to some other games as well.

	03-07-2004 09:42									#28
	Increase the size of your Attachments

CtP's main problems was bugs and UI. CtP2 is as good as Civ3. Well, other then the AI won't kill you... but the developers can call that "By Design" because the game is only played for your enjoyment.

Not that I'm saying Civ1 was the absolute bomb, and that I spent several years playing Civ2. So flamers back.

Now, MoO3... that demonstrates what can go badly...

	05-07-2004 03:11									#29
	Increase Your PM Length

MOO3 had good marketing before release. Guess they had to choose between making a good game and making money.

	05-07-2004 13:23									#30
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Solver SMAC was the most complex Civ-game,

You have got to be kidding me.
That easily memorable, linear game was complex?
...
no comment

Well, if they're not interested in complexity, what are they going to cram into this TBS? filler?