24-06-2004 06:14									#1
	Python/XML Scripting Tired of ads?

What does everyone in here think of the announcement that scripting through Python will be available for things like combat, AI, etc.?

I think it (obviously) opens up a whole new realm of possibilities when it comes to modding the game, for which there is a large community in the Civ world.

Hopefully practically everything will be moddable through Python, as that is the best way to both tweak things in-house and allow modders the greatest flexibility.

Let's hope things work out.

	24-06-2004 18:17									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Wasn't Jeff Briggs the one that said "scripting only makes it possible for players to create bugs" or something like that?

I hope the attitude at Firaxis has changed.

	24-06-2004 19:37									#3
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

It was Mike Breitkreutz. I don't remember the exact quote, but it was something like "I don't believe in giving user scripting languages because the only additional power they give is the power to create bugs".

Well, that's great news, as it will mean Civ4 will be about as moddable as CtP2 .

	24-06-2004 23:13									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Yup. Mike is working on Pirates (at the moment).

	29-06-2004 13:35									#5
	Put an end to popups!

Python?

Does that mean the game will be written in Python for a 20x performance hit?



XML, on the other hand, can be an interesting vehicle.

	31-08-2004 05:13									#6
	Put an end to popups!

I hope there will still be an intuitive editor to do the things the Civ3 and Civ2 editors do, and maybe you should be able to create a customized editor from scratch to more conveniently do the things you like to do. And it would be nice to be able to create a customized startup options sequence.

	01-09-2005 15:10									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I know this is an old thread, but the title describes pretty well what I want to ask: I am currently going a year on "folkehøyskole", a Nordic thing where you learn something you are interested in without any pressure of homework, grades etc. I am attending IT and we can here choose some things that we want to learn in addition to the HTML, C++, Linux and so on. And I thought I'd check out Python since Civ4 will have that programming language. So, I just wondered what you guys thought would be a good strategy? Aside from the basics, what should I focus on? I guess some things will be more important than others...

	01-09-2005 15:39									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Thread necromancy seems to get ever more popular these days...

I haven't done much Python yet, somehow it always unsettles me that logical constructs are done via indentation of the code (ifs for ex.). In a way it keeps your code kind of readable, but it's strange if you come from C++ or PHP like I do...

Other than that, you will need the basics unless you already have some programming knowledge. Apart from that, the things you will want to focus on depend on what parts of the game you will want to work on.

And that's the hard part: we have no idea yet what the API for Python modding will look like, so it's possible a lot of the functionality you need is already implemented and you mostly need to put together existing function calls, and add any really specific functionality yourself. I think file/IO aspects are important, as you will always need those - beyond that, it really depends...

If you want to work on the AI, you will need in-depth knowledge of the language as a whole (contructs, string handling, tables, etc.) to build something that doesn't hog too much resources. But as I said, 80% of what you need to learn depends on the available API.

...and btw, I hope they will include a good reference for developers in there. I remember Etherlords - great potential via the LUA scripting language, but near to no reference: that ruined modding completely.

	01-09-2005 15:46									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I have no experience in programming at all, but I hope to understand something... But it sounds from what you write that AI is nothing for me then...

Heh... It would be nice to be able to do something with the game, I hope I have the brains for this...

	01-09-2005 15:52									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Don't worry - start with the basics, and then just start modding and see how it works. You will always find some people here who are willing to help if you are stuck

	01-09-2005 15:57									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Nikolai And I thought I'd check out Python since Civ4 will have that programming language. So, I just wondered what you guys thought would be a good strategy?

from our civ4 section

quote: Python has been added as a scripting language (and a powerful one at that), which will allow modders to add events to the game, change game rules, change the User Interface, modify the map generation algorithm, etc.

	01-09-2005 16:17									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Wohoo MarkG, nice Avatar

	01-09-2005 16:42									#13
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by AeonOfTime Thread necromancy seems to get ever more popular these days...

Great definition! ROTFL!

	01-09-2005 16:47									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

Well, what can I say, Mike Breitkreutz is surely one of those "uber-programmers" who think everyone around are just idiots who don't understand the importance of his work.
Have been working with such as I am a programmer myself.

I can say that I will be all-in for modding this and I have the expierence and knowledge for it.

Also, Trip, if there are any other people in Firaxis who don't think volunteeristic modding can lead to anything good, let them visit Paradox Entertainment Forums and see what "user-developer interaction" and "powerful modding" mean.

Each game of the historical simulation series [Crusader Kings, Europa Universalis(2), Victoria, Hearts of Iron(2)] has it's own community-made mods which actually are the most played versions of those games, one of the best examples being AGC-EEP mod for EU2.


At least from what's breedin in SMACX community, it seems we will be aiming for something similar if Firaxis doesn't plan SMAC2 in near future.

	01-09-2005 18:50									#15
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

How to Think Like a Computer Scientist -- Learning with Python

This is an excellent guide for learning programming in genernal and Python in particular. I'd expect that the first 10 chapters and appendix A would be most useful if you want to learn it specifically for Civ4. If you're more/also interesting in programming in general the other half of the book is a definite recommended read as well.

(And no, this does of course not include any Civ4-specific info such as the API but you can't use the API until you learn the basics anyway, and this is probably one of the best possible places to start learning the basics)

	01-09-2005 20:18									#16
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Python? Does that mean the game will be written in Python for a 20x performance hit?

No. The interface is written in python, and the map generator, and possibly a few other things. If they wrote the entire game in python they'd have to open-source it, unless there's a compiled version.

	01-09-2005 20:40									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker unless there's a compiled version.

There is. Performance isn't even that bad, though I doubt you could reasonably design a fully 3D game environment with it. For the trivia freaks, some large (or largish) commerical applications such as bittorrent and much of Google's software (including Gmail and Google Maps) have been coded in Python.

But stop responding to 15-month-old posts, it's not like those people are still following this thread

	01-09-2005 21:05									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by binTravkin Well, what can I say, Mike Breitkreutz is surely one of those "uber-programmers" who think everyone around are just idiots who don't understand the importance of his work. Have been working with such as I am a programmer myself. I can say that I will be all-in for modding this and I have the expierence and knowledge for it. Also, Trip, if there are any other people in Firaxis who don't think volunteeristic modding can lead to anything good, let them visit Paradox Entertainment Forums and see what "user-developer interaction" and "powerful modding" mean. Each game of the historical simulation series [Crusader Kings, Europa Universalis(2), Victoria, Hearts of Iron(2)] has it's own community-made mods which actually are the most played versions of those games, one of the best examples being AGC-EEP mod for EU2. At least from what's breedin in SMACX community, it seems we will be aiming for something similar if Firaxis doesn't plan SMAC2 in near future.

It seems everyone remembers the quote but no one remembers the context... I was referring to scripting languages vs. a visual editor.

While scripting languages are a powerful tool for programmers, not everyone is a programmer. There are many people who would like to edit a game or make mods who have no idea how to use scripting languages and any sort of programming makes no sense to them. I would much rather see a visual tool/editor that gives the same benefits as a scripting language without requiring the user to actually know how to program or learn the syntax of a particular language; something akin to Starcraft's trigger editor. With such a custom tool, the rules of the various scripting languages could be more enforceable by restricting the user from creating situations which would be problematic for the game or that the would cause the game to be unstable.

So as you can see, I am not against allowing users to mod the game; I just feel that scripting languages are too limiting for the average user who lacks programming ability.

The problem with such a custom tool, however, is the amount of time it takes to build it. Not only does the game have to support the underlying (possibly custom) scripting language, but the tool has to be created, debugged, and tested almost as extensively as the game. And unlike traditional editors, it would generally not be used as much by the developers as they actually are programmers and would tend to just write the code directly. Therefore, the editor would probably not be as robust as it could be. As there never seems to be an abundance of time available during game development this is generally not cost effective.

Hence we have scripting in Civ4. It's quite powerful but you have to know a bit about how to program.

	01-09-2005 21:11									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: I would much rather see a visual tool/editor that gives the same benefits as a scripting language without requiring the user to actually know how to program or learn the syntax of a particular language; something akin to Starcraft's trigger editor.

That's a very good goal, but something you can only try to approach, for a visual tool will never give you the same power that a fully fledged scripting language especially in the case of Civ4, where the language used is Python, which is a complete language in its own right.

Another advantage is that withs scripting the modders who ARE programmers can immediately start doing it.

quote: It seems everyone remembers the quote but no one remembers the context...

That's the fate that comes to all famous people . BTW, nice to see you, Mike!

	01-09-2005 21:24									#20
	Suffering from ads?

Should we be declaring September 1st, Firaxis Visitation Day?

	01-09-2005 21:50									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS It seems everyone remembers the quote but no one remembers the context...

isnt it always that way?

glad to see you posting again mike

	01-09-2005 22:07									#22
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS I would much rather see a visual tool/editor that gives the same benefits as a scripting language without requiring the user to actually know how to program or learn the syntax of a particular language;

I see where you're going, but the thing is that that's pretty damn close to impossible. Either you restrict the user so much that the tool is very limited that and doesn't nearly approximate the usability of a scripting language (someone had a shot of designing such a thing for CtP2 and that was pretty much the result), or you make it so open that it's still gonna take some effort to learn and it will still allow the user to 'create bugs' -- to use your infamous quote (E.g. it would have to have loops but it's pretty hard to detect and prevent infinite loops).

quote: restricting the user from creating situations which would be problematic for the game or that the would cause the game to be unstable.

The worst that could is happen is that the game would crash. Of course that's something that you want to prevent under all circumstance if you're a developer, but if by allowing the user to crash the game every now and then you also allow him to do wonderful things with it that can't even imagine when desiging the game, that's a sacrifice worth serious consideration (and we're all happy to see that was done for Civ4 )

Also, a scripting language doesn't have to be usable by all users. In my experience, those who can't use it will typically stear well clear of it -- as the mere idea of programming is intimidating to many people who've never done it (don't ask me why, but I've found that to be the case) -- while those who can use it can provide great diversity and keep a game alife long after the designers moved on to making other games (see the CtP games, which are still intensively being modded and played today). And if you provide a multi-tiered system as Civ4 does, everyone will be able to get something out of the modding capabilities.


Nice to see you again though

	01-09-2005 22:14									#23
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Nikolai I have no experience in programming at all, but I hope to understand something... But it sounds from what you write that AI is nothing for me then... Heh... It would be nice to be able to do something with the game, I hope I have the brains for this...

The best thing for you to do is to learn programming in general. Come up with little tools that would be useful for you. The ideal learning project is one that is useful at a very primitive state, but can be elaborated and extended in many different ways. Programming isn't fundamentally hard, but it does require a shift in perspective that does not come naturally to many people.

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker No. The interface is written in python, and the map generator, and possibly a few other things. If they wrote the entire game in python they'd have to open-source it, unless there's a compiled version.

Python can be compiled to byte code. There's probably a lot of stuff that's still implemented in C++, though, with bindings from Python, either due to performance requirements or because Python doesn't natively do those things. Also, distributing the entire game as Python scripts does not mean the game is open source, as "open source" refers both to the distribution of the source and the license.

quote: Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS I would much rather see a visual tool/editor that gives the same benefits as a scripting language without requiring the user to actually know how to program or learn the syntax of a particular language; something akin to Starcraft's trigger editor. With such a custom tool, the rules of the various scripting languages could be more enforceable by restricting the user from creating situations which would be problematic for the game or that the would cause the game to be unstable.

In the category of things you know but not everyone else knows...

With the obvious limitations imposed by the halting problem, of course ;-). That means (sort of) that there's only so much that you can say about how a program will react to inputs without actually running the program with those inputs.

A visual editor would always be less powerful than the scripting language directly. Your ability to modify the game would be limited by the imagination of the tool designer. Any editor that surmounted those limitations would be in effect no different from a programming editor.

	01-09-2005 23:45									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS Hence we have scripting in Civ4. It's quite powerful but you have to know a bit about how to program.

Excellent! This is right up my alley.

	01-09-2005 23:52									#25
	Remove this text

Same for me
The knowledge that you can modify Civ IV to a great extent (as long as you have the necessary programming skills) has really increased my interest in the game

	02-09-2005 00:39									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS It seems everyone remembers the quote but no one remembers the context... I was referring to scripting languages vs. a visual editor. .................................

I agree with you, Mike.

	03-09-2005 08:04									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS Hence we have scripting in Civ4. It's quite powerful but you have to know a bit about how to program.

That's why the Civ community is so great. Just like we have talented makers of units or graphics, we have people who have programming knowledge. I think the fanbase will be able to use these tools as effectively as any group could (except game designers, of course ).

	03-09-2005 09:44									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

A ton is certainly possible. Personally, I'm very excited to see what the community will cook up.

	03-09-2005 17:25									#29
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS I would much rather see a visual tool/editor that gives the same benefits as a scripting language without requiring the user to actually know how to program or learn the syntax of a particular language; something akin to Starcraft's trigger editor. With such a custom tool, the rules of the various scripting languages could be more enforceable by restricting the user from creating situations which would be problematic for the game or that the would cause the game to be unstable.

Another good example, that I played around with a lot was Operation Flashpoint's editor. You could do really a lot and powerful stuff with a few mouseclicks. I think it was some sort of hybrid visual/scripting, IIRC.

Generally, I think while visual tools target a bigger audience and invites everyone to do something, the scripting language invites a smaller audience, but who can do bigger things.
And personally, I rather have a few mods, but which are played a lot than thousands of scenarios that nobody plays. This is better for the community as well, since they get more feedback on their mods and can develop faster. And as we all know, modmakers often aren't the same people who play the mods, so they rely on feedback from players. That said, I welcome the descision for Civ4

	03-09-2005 21:56									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Trip A ton is certainly possible. Personally, I'm very excited to see what the community will cook up.

So am I. I imagine it will take some time before the really cool stuff is made, but the possibilities seem almost endless.