24-06-2004 12:17									#1
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Ok

What's going on around here?

Are we going to play the turn or what?

Arnelos says that the newest poll is "unofficial." Why? I don't know, but if so, then why are we waiting to play the turn? Are we trying to tip off GWT that we have some major planning to do?

MZ tells me that 6 hours ago he left the chat as the turn was about to be played!

Is only one Consul in charge?

	24-06-2004 17:13									#2
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Happily, given that GWT thinks they've messed us up seriously with the Sistine Chapel, we have a "reason" to be taking so long.

Still, I'd like us to come to an agreement and move forward pretty soon.

-Arrian

	24-06-2004 22:37									#3
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In the chatroom it was discussed that (at Arnelos' prodding above all else), that the turn wait until more votes were tallied. Currently with 12 in favor and 15 against, along with all 3 consuls, E_T and myself against, if the turn is to be played it would be without the Parthe strike.

	24-06-2004 23:19									#4
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We decided that with the poll as close as it was (1-vote margin), we had better just wait for the poll to finish. As of right now, there are but a few hours left in that.

	24-06-2004 23:43									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Trip In the chatroom it was discussed that (at Arnelos' prodding above all else), that the turn wait until more votes were tallied. Currently with 12 in favor and 15 against, along with all 3 consuls, E_T and myself against, if the turn is to be played it would be without the Parthe strike.

So, if the people in charge don't like the result then we can halt the game? That's what you're implying anyways. How many PM's were sent out to mostly lurking players?

Maybe we can halt the turn next time for another new poll....

	25-06-2004 00:58									#6
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree So, if the people in charge don't like the result then we can halt the game? That's what you're implying anyways. How many PM's were sent out to mostly lurking players? Maybe we can halt the turn next time for another new poll....

BF, stop being difficult simply for the sake of it.

The turn wasn't played because the leadership wanted more people to have a say in the poll, instead of forging in doing what they wanted.

Or would you rather the consuls simply go ahead and do whatever they please and ignore polls?

The poll is now 12-18. That shows that only 33% of the membership of this team supports going after Parthemunde. If there was a repoll for the sake of trying to get the results of the first reversed, then people would have voted the same and the poll would have ended in the same way, right?

Oh wait, people are against it now!

Maybe doing what the people really want isn't important to you BF...

	25-06-2004 01:26									#7
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There's more people who voted in this poll than the previous one. Maybe a PM campaign swayed this vote; which I think is a little....

Anyways, I'm sure that the Parth strike would have been called off regardless of the results of either poll. It just so happens that the results of the latest poll allow you to smile smugly about it.

	25-06-2004 01:33									#8
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BF, you obviously have no respect for the leadership of this team.

We were in chat about to play the save and go ahead with the Parthe strike when a rather lively discussion developed which ended up resulting in the 2nd poll being posted. We were about to go ahead with it.

I think you're honestly just trying to find ways to stir up trouble than help the team. Even those who were against the move were willing to accept it before the 2nd poll was made. So many people in chat were against it that we all agreed a second poll was a good idea, simply to gauge how team opinion had changed with recent events. And as we can all see, it did change... and as I said, 67% of the team is now against it.

I'll tell you the same thing I told Togas: if you really think that the people on this team are so horrible and out for themselves and not listening to anyone, why do you even bother posting here? You show no respect for us and have a conspiracy theory about every move we make. The only thing that seems to please you is when we go ahead and do what you want.

	25-06-2004 01:40									#9
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree There's more people who voted in this poll than the previous one. Maybe a PM campaign swayed this vote; which I think is a little.... Anyways, I'm sure that the Parth strike would have been called off regardless of the results of either poll. It just so happens that the results of the latest poll allow you to smile smugly about it.

Jesus christ will you give it a rest with your groundless conspiracy theories that we PM people to vote in polls to suit our ends? It's getting pretty old...

Face it, the poll did not go your way. Deal with it and stop whining when it is more than obvious that the people have voted for what they thought was right.

Secondly, what ON EARTH, makes you think that we would have ignored the results of this poll if it had gone in favor of Parthe and done what we wanted, at the risk of getting our asses CoCed and at the risk of pissing off the entire membership? It is ludicrous to say the least.

I had said in the poll thread that we needed a "clear tendency" before accepting. If I were to have played that turn, I would have honored that statement, and would have gone to Parthe. However, I had to leave 15 minutes before Kloreep was about to play the save and thus, the decision was taken by he and Arnelos to delay since more votes were coming in and they seems to signal a "clear tendency" towards NOT going against Parthe.

I agree with you entirely that we MUST PLAY THE SAVE ASAP but I simply do not time to do it right now until much later tonight. If any of the other two consuls want to play it right now, they should, without delay.

	25-06-2004 01:46									#10
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Here's a clip from the chat room when playing the save yesterday was discussed at this point the poll was in favor of going against Parthemunde

See for yourself how your conspiracy theories are utter BS and see how all 3 consuls were advocating playing and respecting the poll as it was at that moment (in favor) :

quote: [16:02] [Kloreep] When shall we play the turn? [16:03] [Kloreep] I don't know CFC's exact plans, but I assume they can delay and/or turn towards the south later [16:03] [MasterZen] klo, I say we can play the turn any time now [16:04] [MasterZen] I doubt the poll will swing against [16:05] [Arnelos] wait for later this evening [16:05] [Arnelos] but yes, we should play today [16:05] [MasterZen] should no, MUST [16:07] [Kloreep] We don't want to delay too long over losing a wonder [16:07] [Arnelos] yes [16:08] [BigFree] I'd say play it now [16:08] [BigFree] but thats for you three to decide [16:09] [BigFree] adiso [16:09] * BigFree has quit IRC (Quit: You know you miss me already! ) [16:09] [Kloreep] If we aren't going to play now, I'm going to go AFK for a while [16:09] * Kloreep is now known as Kloreep|away [16:09] [Arnelos] I want to give time for at least people coming home from work in the 5 p.m. - 7 p.m. EDT braket of time to vote [16:10] [Kloreep|away] Good point [16:10] [Arnelos] but I think we should play at around 7 p.m. EDT [16:10] [Kloreep|away] This was started late at night for Eastern folks [16:16] [MasterZen] and Central folks [16:18] [Arnelos] bah, they don't count anyways [16:19] [Krill] I hope you remember us poor sods who live in GMT... [16:19] [E_T[MoI]] [Kloreep] It looks like Parth wins [16:19] [E_T[MoI]] well, in this case, override [16:19] [MasterZen] nope [16:20] [MasterZen] the people speak, we listen [16:20] [MasterZen] if this fails, they'll account for the mistake [16:20] [E_T[MoI]] well, the poll isn;t closed [16:20] [MasterZen] E_T, we can't hold the save until it is [16:20] [Kloreep|away] As MZ says, the people speak, we listen [16:20] [Kloreep|away] Besides which, I don't think we legally can override this [16:21] [MasterZen] we can, at the risk of a CoC [16:21] * Kloreep|away . [16:21] [Krill] how does that work? [16:21] [E_T[MoI]] well, we have Vond's post [16:21] [MasterZen] so what about Vond's post? [16:21] [MasterZen] just because he says it, we do it? [16:22] [E_T[MoI]] he would have only been slightly miffed if you had overrid [16:22] [MasterZen] Krill, if for any reason a person is unsatisfied with the performance of a consul, for whatever reason, he can call a Change of Command [16:22] [MasterZen] it is then put to a vote and if it passes, the consul is replaced [16:22] [E_T[MoI]] and with the poll so close, it gives you a justification to override [16:22] [MasterZen] It has only happened once [16:23] [E_T[MoI]] especailly if all of the Consul agree [16:23] [Krill] ok, tthanks [16:23] [MasterZen] E_T, WHAT GROUNDS do I have in overriding when the poll is going CLEARLY IN FAVOR? [16:23] [Arnelos] E_T - stop suggesting that we override the will of the public on this. If they decide to go for it, we go for it. [16:23] [Arnelos] All of the Consuls do NOT agree, however

this is before I left off to my date, when Klo and Arne began talking about playing the save poll was still in favor:

quote: [20:10] * Kloreep|away is now known as Kloreep [20:11] * Kloreep sets mode: +o Nuclear_Winter [20:11] [Kloreep] So, when are we going to play the save? [20:11] [MasterZen] you tell me [20:11] [MasterZen] I have a date in 15 min [20:12] [mrmitchell] we're playing in 15 minutes [20:12] [Arnelos] lemme look [20:12] [Arnelos] still 13-12 [20:12] [WhiteBandit] 15 minutes! [20:13] [Kloreep] Poll has been open 21 1/2 hours

The final bit before I left. As you can see the poll was still in favor of Parthe. I honestly don't know what happened during that time until I came back but when I did, the poll had swing in favor. Tough luck. Deal with it, but don't accusse us of conspiring when nothing of the sort was done:

quote: [20:24] [E_T] I'll say this, I feel so strongly that we are making a huge mistake, because if CGN's ****ing ineptitude, that we will LOSE this attempt on their FP [20:24] [E_T] and I'll not be a part of that, in any respect [20:24] [MasterZen] I'm outta here [20:24] [Arnelos] E_T - what are we going to do if GWT really has 50 Ansar Warriors in range of Ruhr? [20:24] [E_T] THAT IS HOW STROINGLY I FEEL about his [20:25] [Arnelos] it's a suicide mission even with 30 knights then [20:25] * Disconnected Session Close: Wed Jun 23 20:25:11 2004

	25-06-2004 01:47									#11
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MZ, not that you would have ignored the poll; but that you would have held another one and another until you got it the way you wanted.

And Trip, you are partialy correct. The respect for the leadership is dwindling. I post here because I care about what happens; same as you. Only I strongly disagree with your opinions in this matter and not to mention methods of getting your way.

	25-06-2004 01:53									#12
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree MZ, not that you would have ignored the poll; but that you would have held another one and another until you got it the way you wanted.

That is EQUALLY RIDICULOUS. Hold the save endlessly until we got what we want???

What's apparent to me is that your opinion of us consuls is so utterly biased, so deluded towards your own twisted idea of our goals not only as exectuvies but as members of this team, that you will simply refuse to accept the obvious no matter what.

If you continue to avoid accepting that what we did encouraged further debate, futher investigation and that this final vote was done with far better information than the past one, I really have nothing more to argue with you.

	25-06-2004 01:55									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Master Zen That is EQUALLY RIDICULOUS. Hold the save endlessly until we got what we want???

Have you no imagination?

How many turns from now until the Parth strike could have happened? How many polls could have been posted between now and then to stop such a strike?

Can I let go of your hand now?

	25-06-2004 01:56									#14
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The only reason another poll was held because a variety of people who had previously been in favor disagreed with the move, including E_T who used to be the plan's biggest proponent.

No more polls would have been held, because at some point people would have gotten frustrated with the consuls and thought that more polls would have been trying to get their way. But there's only been 2 polls, and the 2nd one has ended quite decisively. Do you honestly believe that had this been in favor of yes, the consuls would have posted another poll?

Seriously BF, I think the lack of respect for the team is in your head. Believing that is silly. The team wouldn't have stood for it unless you also believe the team was in with the consuls on the conspiracy... in which case the team actaully agrees with what is going on and it's NOT a conspiracy.

	25-06-2004 01:58									#15
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MZ: mrmitchell wasn't serious. He was just being his usual self.

Myself, I assumed we wouldn't play until the poll had been open around 24 hours, so that everyone who checks in every 24 hours or so would have a chance to vote.

It was around then things got very tight indeed; the vote was against Parth with a 1 vote margin, IIRC, when Arnelos and I agreed not to play the turn that night.

	25-06-2004 02:34									#16
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I'm tempted to close this thread. The discussion in here is not productive and the issue itself is pretty much done with.

	25-06-2004 02:50									#17
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Have you no imagination? How many turns from now until the Parth strike could have happened? How many polls could have been posted between now and then to stop such a strike? Can I let go of your hand now?

No BF because the decision to go after Parth had to be taken THIS TURN. There was no way out of it next turn since we'd lose coordination of the strike forces.

Please be informed of the details of the military operations before spouting out mindless conspiracy theories.

As per me, I see no objections in closing this thread, our points have been made, let the peopel decide who is right.

	25-06-2004 02:54									#18
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Well, first there was a heated debate over the Parth Strike, then some shouting, then after people calmed down, things were discussed and Arnie finally changed his mind.

And at that time, with the 3 Consuls in agreement, the MoI and former MoW/Consul Trip all in agreement that the vote now stood in favor of canceling the Parth Strike, we had though that we could still go ahead with the save.

BUT, the Consuls wanted the poll to run to make sure that as many people had their say, even if it had gone back to having the Parth Strike on again. But that's how our team is set to operate.

E_T

	25-06-2004 03:10									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Arnelos I'm tempted to close this thread. The discussion in here is not productive and the issue itself is pretty much done with.

Do so already, Arnelos. It won't change the ground problems of this team, though. Too much bickering is keeping members away. Many decide to lurk, as otherwise you risk being flamed for the smallest of mistakes, or difference in opinion. Last time a massive flame war was here (on the same issue, I think), it was attributed to boredom. Now, there is no excuse. Stop the flaming, please, or the 'poly team will eventually only consist of those who flame hardest.

DeepO

	25-06-2004 03:22									#20
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Agreed with DeepO.