24-06-2004 21:23									#1
	Optimal Trading (newbies) Full PM-box? Change here!

Trading

This is just a short tip for newbies. Some people consider it a pain in the neck doing the following. It is only meant as a compliment to what you normally do in the Trading Screen (haggling).

Say I want the silk of Cleo. I only have 300 gold saved and I am only making 60 gpt. If I go to her directly, without adjusting the tech and luxury slide bar, she will ask for example for 300 lump gold and 50 gpt (20 turns)

This makes out a total of 300 + 50*20= 1.300 g

Now say that before visiting good old Cleo we adjust the slide bars and increase our tech input and the amount used for luxuries (so as to spend MORE and earn LESS). Now for example we are only making 30 gpt instead of 60gpt. We now go to Cleo (remember the AI knows at all times how much money you have stashed away and how much you are making, just like the IRS ).

We strike the same deal only this time Cleo will ask for the 300 gold and 20 gpt.

This makes out a total of 300 + 20*20= 700.

You have saved your Empire 500 gold and obtained the same silk. It might not sound like such a big deal after all, albeit if you do this in every single bargain along all the game you save thousands which could go to…building units.

The golden rule is to haggle over the deal always. Never accept what you are offered upfront. There is always a better deal lying ahead…

BTW once the deal is over you READJUST the tech slide and the luxuries to what you had previously before speaking with Cleo (so you are back again making 60 gpt) perhaps even more, because with the new silk luxury and with a marketplace in your towns more people are now happy and willing to work so you have less artists and more workers at it. Which in turn means you are making more money……

”If you fail to plan, you plan to fail”

	24-06-2004 21:37									#2
	Got spare money?

I disagree. The AI has a set price for everything, calculated based on various in-game conditions. The price is negotiable to some extent, but in my experience only up to about 10%. The price of a luxury does not relate to your ability to pay.

In your example, if you reduce your income to 30gpt from 60gpt, the AI will simply decline to trade you the luxury because you cannot make the minimum price it will accept....and the AI will never accept more gpt than you are making, since that would give you a negative gpt and theoretically unable to pay your debts (irrespective of your ability to move the slider).

In fact, because of this the opposite is true. Where you are only making say 30gpt and the AI needs at least 50gpt for the trade, you can move the slider down so you are making more than 50gpt, do the deal, then move it back up again, resulting in a negative income per turn (which is not particularly advisable unless you have stacks of cash already).

	24-06-2004 21:48									#3
	Increase Your PM Length

You are right pointing out Aqualung 71 that the AI has a set price for the luxuries. The more luxuries you have the more gold they want from you, besides other factors.

I can only elaborate empirically.

I am not familiar with the algorithms used by Firaxis.

Just try it out in a saved game or in a new one. Try striking a deal just normally but without actually closing the deal;now preadjust the slabs to decrease (sic) your income per turn. Try now the same deal and I am almost certain the AI will ask for less gpt than before, perhaps you only save 40 g. It depends on many factors, such as the number of luxuries you already have.

Now, you cannot abuse by adjusting the slide bar at its max (earning zero gpt say) because obviously the AI is stupid, but not so much. There is a minimum (a fixed price for the lux), and that is what you are aiming for, the minimum. You aim to optimize (minimize) the gold per trade. Just try it out ! I mean you are only going to save some gold, you are not going to save 50% of the price they are asking you, by no means, I never meant to say such a thing. The figures and numbers I gave in the article were just illustrative and represent no real bargain done by me.

No matter how small the difference, everything counts on the long run.

	24-06-2004 22:21									#4
	Re: Optimal Trading (newbies) Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

What the AI charges you for a luxury is a function of the number of additional happy faces it will create in your empire, so at first glance I figured that you had made a mistake. After all, the number of additional happy faces that a luxury creates should be the same no matter where you set the tech slider. Then I saw it.

You also moved the luxury slider.

Suppose you had a town that had five happy and one content people before you moved the luxury slider. After you moved the luxury slider you would have six happy people. The addtional luxury would have no effect and therfore no cost.

By increasing the Luxury slider you may have decreased the preceived value of the AI's luxury.

This should be very exploitable. Before negotiating for a luxury move the tech slider all the way down to zero and move the luxury slider all the way up. Once the sliders have been moved ask the AI how much the luxury will cost. You readjust the sliders after trading has completed.

IthacaMike

	25-06-2004 01:03									#5
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IthacaMike, I think you may have found the root cause.

If this is true, it can be very useful. It would explain why, in C3C, the AI values those damn lux. sooo much. I mean the AI will not accept a straight up trade for lux. (my lux for the AI lux).

I will definitely try this out.

	25-06-2004 02:08									#6
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that's kind of a stupid way for the ai to think. it should look at how valuable to luxery is to them, not to the person they are trading with....

	25-06-2004 05:53									#7
	Re: Re: Optimal Trading (newbies) Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by IthacaMike The addtional luxury would have no effect and therfore no cost. By increasing the Luxury slider you may have decreased the preceived value of the AI's luxury.

While I knew that the more luxuries you have, the more expensive the next one is.....I wasn't aware it was tied to the number of happy faces that would be created and thus exploitable by engineering your empire to be very happy just before the trade. If this is correct, it is a major exploit! I will have to try this

	25-06-2004 13:34									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The reason being why the AI charges you more money the more luxuries you already posses is precisely for the number of happy faces it produces. The AI knows this and prices it in the luxury it is selling you.
With the economies of scale produced by the improvement in a city "marketplace" which boosts the amount of citizens that are happy in the 7th and 8th luxury (I recall it's 4 workers each that are happy for the 7th and 8th, just check out any game in the city screen).
The more luxs you have with a marketplace the hapiness increases not geometrically but exponentially. See the instructions manual of C3C.
The more happy citizens within your empire the shield output is increased, your revenue is now greater because there are now more people willing to join the job market (working new tiles), so now you even get more cash from taxes, you can allocate more cash to research, the cities now grow at a faster pace because more tiles are being worked on, your score is now higher (look at the histograph and pou will see it factors in the amount of happy and content citizens in your Empire). Plus such happiness triggers WLKD which in turn reduces that disgusting corruption in your cities thus increasing your income AND SO ON...The AI knows all this and that is precisely why it charges you all the more the more luxuries you have. The 7th and 8th luxury you adquire for your Empire are going to be the dearest financially.
Just play around with the luxuries and research slabs before and after trade dealings and you will see it does make a difference, no matter how small it might be. Enjoy !

Last edited by Drakan on 25-06-2004 at 13:55

	25-06-2004 16:28									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Errrrr......yes, I kinda know all that stuff, so that wasn't my point. But anyway, no problem. All very useful info for newbies, as you've said.

	25-06-2004 17:04									#10
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Thanks for the information, I knew that the cost of luxuries and for that matter strategic resources was related in some way to the size of my civ compared to their's, but was unaware of how the calculation was done, certainly if I am smaller than them, a straight swap of luxuries is achievable, sometimes even they will include a gpt by them if you are much smaller than them

	25-06-2004 18:22									#11
	Re: Re: Optimal Trading (newbies) Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by IthacaMike What the AI charges you for a luxury is a function of the number of additional happy faces it will create in your empire, so at first glance I figured that you had made a mistake. After all, the number of additional happy faces that a luxury creates should be the same no matter where you set the tech slider. Then I saw it. You also moved the luxury slider.

What do you mean by "I saw it"? Are you conjecturing, or did you test it out?

Things that are known (to me, at least!):

1. The AI asks for more money for Luxs the more of them you already have access to.
2. The AI asks for more money for Luxs the higher the population of your empire.
3. The AI asks for more money (gpt and lump sums) than it thinks is a fair deal in trades, but never more than you actually have.

To my knowledge, the relative happiness of your empire does not directly affect Lux trades with the AI.

	25-06-2004 23:02									#12
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Right. And as I said above, it would be hugely exploitable if it did! And I'm sure it would also have been discussed at length elsewhere, which it hasn't (to my knowledge).

	26-06-2004 02:07									#13
	Re: Re: Re: Optimal Trading (newbies) Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Dominae What do you mean by "I saw it"? Are you conjecturing, or did you test it out?

Conjecture.

I just tested it in a save game where I was obtaining my sixth Luxury. With the Luxury slider at 0% the sixth Luxury cost 911 gold. With the Luxury slider at 100% the sixth Luxury cost 911 gold.

It looks like adjusting the Luxury slider berfor trading has no effect on the true cost of an additional Luxury.

quote: Originally posted by Dominae Things that are known (to me, at least!): ... 3. The AI asks for more money (gpt and lump sums) than it thinks is a fair deal in trades, but never more than you actually have.

That could explain what Drakann saw. Rereading his post shows that the costs he was quoting were what Cleo originally _asked_, not what she was willing to accept.

	26-06-2004 03:08									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Does availability of the resource have any effect? i.e.: Cleo has all the silk so AI will demand all it can get.

	26-06-2004 06:06									#15
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I am pretty sure I've seen the AI ask for more money if it only has 1 available resource. For example, the AI has 2 silks and 1 spice. It may expect more for the spice, probably because it has 2 opportunities to trade the silk.

	30-06-2004 17:31									#16
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Optimal Trading (newbies) Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by IthacaMike I just tested it in a save game where I was obtaining my sixth Luxury. With the Luxury slider at 0% the sixth Luxury cost 911 gold. With the Luxury slider at 100% the sixth Luxury cost 911 gold. It looks like adjusting the Luxury slider berfor trading has no effect on the true cost of an additional Luxury.

Just to check - did setting the luxury slider to 100% make every person happy in at least some cities?

If you don't max out happiness in some cities, then you still gain the same number of smiley faces regardless of where you put the slider (and if you have every city in your empire happy then presumably you cannot gain from any more smiley faces, so you should get the luxury for free if that is really how the AI values luxuries).

	01-07-2004 00:59									#17
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Optimal Trading (newbies) Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by vulture Just to check - did setting the luxury slider to 100% make every person happy in at least some cities?

That is a very good question. Yes, in fact with the luxury slider at 100% almost all my people were happy and I was losing a ton of money. With the luxury slider at 0% about a third of my people were unhappy.


IhacaMike

	19-07-2004 10:37									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Aqualung71 I am pretty sure I've seen the AI ask for more money if it only has 1 available resource. For example, the AI has 2 silks and 1 spice. It may expect more for the spice, probably because it has 2 opportunities to trade the silk.

Catt did a study about monopolies at one point... I vaguely remember that they DO count.