24-06-2004 21:28									#1
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The first half hour


Most experienced players will agree, as in chess, the opening moves prove to be crucial in civ.

The vast majority of civilization games are decided within the first half hour of playing. It is very important to expand ASAP and as broadly as possible to cover up as much land (=key strategical resources, luxuries) and even more so the higher the echelon of difficulty.

It is true that you might be trapped in a small island with 8 cities at Deity and still reach a diplomatic victory, ok. But I am referring to other winning conditions such as space race, domination, conquering, Wonder building…

By this, I do not want to disencourage players who after the first half hour see it all lost and hit the reset. You must always play until the bitter end no matter if it is pretty straight forward that you are going to lose. You learn more out of defeats than from victories, and you never now the outcome no matter how bad are the odds… You play for the fun of it and for the challenge the game poses you. Imagine the British quitting after Dunkerque in WW2 ? Where would we now be here in Europe ? (And thanks also to the yanks for all their sacrifices in D-Day).

There are many good articles on strats for the first moves in internet forums. A must, at least for me, is usually building a granary (having a warrior or spearman to defend) and then pumping out as much settlers as you can all over the screen, even in deserts, you never know (saltpetre, petrol..). I usually do: warrior, worker, settler, granary, settler, settler….The beauty of the game is that remaining the same basically it is always different. So there are no fixed strats to win any given game. It is very dynamic, and what might be a superb strat on one, might be fatal on another. The more you play, the more experienced you are, duh, and the more you challenge yourself to react before a changing environment.

Those civs who stand the Sands of Time are the ones who have learnt to adapt themselves better to their surroundings. Much like Neanderthals, extinct but perfect for the Ice Age, and Cromagnon (our ancestors, better for a hot climate) in their day.

“If you fail to plan, you plan to fail”

	25-06-2004 01:06									#2
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Bah..

At high levels, the game can be lost in the first 30 min. , but it cannot be won. So your statement, "decided in the first 30 min.", is not true.

	25-06-2004 12:29									#3
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In the first thirty minutes at higher levels if you assure your empire enough key strategical resources as well as luxuries to trade in the future you have an excellent launch pad to make other AI happy by trading, you obtain techs in exchange (to catch up), you obtain gold, maps, you prevent wars whilst trading etc...
All this Imtoops is decided in the first thirty minutes or so of gameplay at Emperor or above. Naturally, everybody, myself included, can recall a game in which they had no resources and no luxuries and still managed to win somehow or other. It is just a "generalisation" like all my assertions, it is only blatant there will always be exceptions to it, and I welcome them; otherwise the game would be a drag if everything was decided beforehand.
The point being, that the strategy you choose in those opening moves will prove to be very important throughout the rest of the game. EXPAND, EXPAND, EXPAND !

	25-06-2004 22:17									#4
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I'll expand a bit, but I'll add a few more words to fill out the thread.

I do not discount your point about the first 30 min being extremely important. First off the first 30 min. includes close to 20 turns (I've never really timed it...just a guess). So much happens in that time. In those moves, you find out where your opponents are, if you have resources near....on and on. So the first 30 min. is vitally important...and a poor opening can LOSE the game.

I know that early in my Civ2 days, I kind of flew through these first turns and I sucked at the higher levels. Then I found Apolyton, and discovered how managed my opening moves and how important they are.

But a second big problem, starting great but losing your momentum after the first 30-50 turns. The factors that lead to this are:
1. Turns take longer. With many more cities, diplomacy, AI moves. The game gets to be tedious. You can't let the AI optimally manage your cities, but micro management is very tedious.

2. Initial goals have been met. Players (me especially) fail to reevaluate and create new goals. I tend to glide aimlessly through a few turns.

3. The chances of winning "seem" hopeless...On the higher levels, you will be behind. The AI researchs faster, grows faster, and has a larger army. At high levels, players must keep their focus...which can be hard.

So a great start, does NOT decide the game. You must have a good start, you must not loose focus, you must create new goals or revaluate current goals, you must look for opportunites, you must micro-manage (at m-m the "key" cities)...blah...blah...blah.

	26-06-2004 00:38									#5
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It's true that everything is more important in the beginning of the game, because every little advantage gets multiplied as your civilization grows.

However, half an hour does not mean much in a TBS game. In some games where I can't reload (PBEM or GOTM, for example) by the time I weigh all the options and maybe even set up a test scenario, it takes me half an hour just to play the 3 first turns.

	26-06-2004 01:04									#6
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Yes time is not the issue, turns are. So maybe the first 40 or 100 turns would be a better indicator.

	26-06-2004 10:37									#7
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I usually keep restarting until I get a starting position I can live with then play without a net (no do-overs from saves).

	28-06-2004 13:31									#8
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I agree, I should have written down turns instead, that is what I meant. The first 40 turns or so are very important. xnks

	28-06-2004 17:52									#9
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After the 1st 40 or so turns if it is plainly obvious that you cannot win the game, I would suggest starting a new one. In chess, a lot is learned by losing, and in CivIII as well. But one thing to learn in both is that there comes a time when it's best to concede and start fresh.

	28-06-2004 21:07									#10
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quote: warrior, worker, settler, granary, settler, settler

Hmmm, on Emperor this build queue allows only a single warrior to explore, find the goodies and city-sites, meet the AI's, defend three cities against barbs and keep all them happy at size 2. It also assumes an abundance of food to build a worker then settler straight off.

	28-06-2004 22:39									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus It also assumes an abundance of food to build a worker then settler straight off.

.....and then 2 more settlers straight afterwards?

I don't think so!

	28-06-2004 22:50									#12
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I think that's the same build queue fanes7 used to generate a great leader in 3900 BC.

	28-06-2004 23:01									#13
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It's actually not a bad build queue at all, if you have the starting location to pull it off, but it assumes you have lots of bonus food around your capital.

Your first settler, built before the Granary, will found a city that is going to produce your first military units, and your capital acts as a Settler pump.

	29-06-2004 00:59									#14
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Absolutely, if you can fill that big "if".

	29-06-2004 07:12									#15
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I like building a second city before a granary if food is plentiful, but it's the single warrior that worries me. For starters, making contact early before everyone learns your starting techs is important to me to get in the loop.

	29-06-2004 07:34									#16
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Pretty much the only situation where I would build a settler before a granary is on flood plains with wheat. I would also generally build at least 2 warriors before a settler.

	29-06-2004 10:46									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi I think that's the same build queue fanes7 used to generate a great leader in 3900 BC.

You're right. He got his GL with a settler killing an unlucky elite barb. And it was in 3950BC. The barb had already got into the capital.

	29-06-2004 18:53									#18
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Mea culpa, MS. Definitely can't cheat fanes out of that 50 years.

	29-06-2004 20:25									#19
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quote: Originally posted by RMS After the 1st 40 or so turns if it is plainly obvious that you cannot win the game, I would suggest starting a new one. In chess, a lot is learned by losing, and in CivIII as well. But one thing to learn in both is that there comes a time when it's best to concede and start fresh.

I'm sorry RMS I don't agree. Thera have been some games in which I was certain after the first 60 turns that I was bound to lose. Then in the middle of my desert I had four oil pop up which I could use to trade and catch up. I think that if you are just out for a casual play and expect no fuss, then you can quit if its blatant you are bound to lose. If not, if you want to learn and the challenge, and who knows perhaps even win, you might as well keep playing until the bitter (or sweet) end. You can never be sure of the outcome in this game.

Must say I finished this month a game with the Persians at Emperor and won the space race (accelerated production on). I did not build a single granary in the first 100 or more turns because all my empire was in alluvial soil (lucky me ) so there was just no need to build them because the population increased ever so quickly, and I did not have the Pyramids built, although I later stole it, errr that is to say I borrowed it from the Babilonians .

	29-06-2004 20:46									#20
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Drakann, I think you'll find that most players around here don't play with accelerated production on. If you prefer it that way then fine, but unfortunately you might not be able to compare your strategies with others so easily, as acc. prod. makes a slightly different game than the standard rules which I expect most posters play around here.

	30-06-2004 01:37									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Drakann Must say I finished this month a game with the Persians at Emperor and won the space race (accelerated production on). I did not build a single granary in the first 100 or more turns because all my empire was in alluvial soil (lucky me ) so there was just no need to build them because the population increased ever so quickly, and I did not have the Pyramids built, although I later stole it, errr that is to say I borrowed it from the Babilonians .

Alluvial, sounds like you played some Moo3. Anyway no matter how much food you have you could reduce the cost a growth with a granary.

I guess that is not an issue with AP on. I DL a game from someone with it enabled, but found it to be depressing. Settlers pop out every time you turn around. If speed of play was my concern, I would play more RTS.

	30-06-2004 20:36									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Cort Haus Drakann, I think you'll find that most players around here don't play with accelerated production on. If you prefer it that way then fine, but unfortunately you might not be able to compare your strategies with others so easily, as acc. prod. makes a slightly different game than the standard rules which I expect most posters play around here.

How is that so? Could you please elaborate.

I play with or without AP. I cannot see the how the difference may affect your gameplay dramatically. Units churn out quicker, the game doesn't hover much over the Ancient Age, and you end up quicker in the Modern Times.

If you consistently win (all random options) at Emperor, AP is only a tweak and is hardly going to affect your strats. Besides, there are no fixed strats, IMHO, in this game. A skilled player resembles a plumber who knows how and when to use the appropiate tools he has at hand.

If I play with an expansionist civ (i.e. americans) I build 3 or 4 scouts before any settlers to find techs in goody huts, or find other civs etc... It depends what level your playing at, what civ you have chosen...I only wrote down that building queue as a generalisation. I normally do it that way BUT if I happen to start in a floodplain I choose another strat (I.E. build no granary until much later on).

The opening moves, be it 50, 60 or whatever are key, but not decisive, to the final outcome of the game, regardless of having AP selected.

	30-06-2004 22:01									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Drakann Besides, there are no fixed strats, in my humble opinion, in this game. A skilled player resembles a plumber who knows how and when to use the appropiate tools he has at hand.

Yes, a skilled player will operate according to their civ traits and the external conditions, but some specific openings (and we are talking about openings here) are quantitative, like the Archer Rush. When discussing how many to build and from how many cities, I'd have thought the spt is significant.

I've only played a couple of games with AP but found it had a notably different feel to it - especially build times and unit counts. Configuring cities to optimise production/growth priorities is different and setting up settler pumps involves a different rhythm.

Having said this, Drakken, you've probably played more AP than I have, so if you've found it doesn't change the game much for you then that's your experience, so fair enough.

I still think you're short of warriors in that build queue though

	30-06-2004 22:15									#24
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Yes Cort Haus, you are right. I should have added some warrior for scouting purposes. xnks for the feedback

	01-07-2004 00:35									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Drakann I think that if you are just out for a casual play and expect no fuss, then you can quit if its blatant you are bound to lose. If not, if you want to learn and the challenge, and who knows perhaps even win, you might as well keep playing until the bitter (or sweet) end. You can never be sure of the outcome in this game.

Quitting because one is only out for casual play and no fuss? That's not what I meant. In some chess games there can come a point where continued movement is literally a countdown to the inevitible checkmate--that's the time to concede. In Civ, no matter how much oil popped up or techs were gained, there can also come a point when the AI is virtually poised for a checkmate: through cultural victory, for example, or domination victory, as another. On small maps, on high levels this can come fairly early.
The point at which I'd advocate resigning is the point where victory for the AI is assured.
This happens to me when playing at higher levels. It doesn't keep me from trying over and over to master higher levels (if I didn't I'd still be on chieftain ). It just means I know when it's time to start afresh.

btw--y'know, I do like a nice casual game with no fuss every now and then

	01-07-2004 08:35									#26
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More often now, I find myself quitting after the game advances to the point where my hardware rapidly becomes unable to process the turns. Its the most common cause for a premature end to the game now.

	01-07-2004 12:22									#27
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quote: Originally posted by RMS Quitting because one is only out for casual play and no fuss? That's not what I meant. In some chess games there can come a point where continued movement is literally a countdown to the inevitible checkmate--that's the time to concede. In Civ, no matter how much oil popped up or techs were gained, there can also come a point when the AI is virtually poised for a checkmate: through cultural victory, for example, or domination victory, as another. On small maps, on high levels this can come fairly early. The point at which I'd advocate resigning is the point where victory for the AI is assured. This happens to me when playing at higher levels. It doesn't keep me from trying over and over to master higher levels (if I didn't I'd still be on chieftain ). It just means I know when it's time to start afresh. btw--y'know, I do like a nice casual game with no fuss every now and then

Right, now I catch your drift RMS. Yes I agree. In the cases you mention afore I guess quitting would be intelligent and justified.

The advise of not quitting was intended solely for newbies. If you are now Monarch or above, it doesn't apply to you of course.

	02-07-2004 09:46									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Vince278 More often now, I find myself quitting after the game advances to the point where my hardware rapidly becomes unable to process the turns. Its the most common cause for a premature end to the game now.

RMS' Guilty Pleasure: I had the same problem. I went out and bought a new computer specifically so I wouldn't have any problems playing Civ. I still tell my friends and family I did it because I sometimes use my home computer for work.

	02-07-2004 10:59									#29
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I'll do that eventually.

	02-07-2004 14:46									#30
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I'm still somewhat new to emperor difficulty and find that the AI is very rapid with it's expansion. I try to keep up with that by pumping out my settlers ASAP when my city goes pop 3. This goes on with at least the first 3-4 cities. The only problem is that I might start to catch up on the AI in terms of expansion but usually by the time the free space runs out they start asking for techs and then declare war as I don't want to fork over the latest achievements to them free of charge.

I did some reading in the strategy section concerning REXing and am still finding myself with a few questions. I read that two settler pumps is only required, but how to set them up, do I just build road all around the cities or do I also build mines? At the start there's only one worker to go around, if I expand rapidly the other cities won't be connected for quite some time. Then there's also the task of connecting the found resources.
Seems that also it's not so good to put out the settlers as soon as the city goes pop 3? OTOH if you do then there's time to build another unit as the city grows. I guess I need more army to deter the AI from declaring war on me. Very challenging.