12-02-2001 18:23									#31
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

So basically he spoke harshly when you accused him of unjustly closing your thread. That about the summation of it?

	12-02-2001 18:25									#32
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Isn't it a bit far fetched then to ask other posters for their view on your problem when only Ming and yourself know what happened?

Maybe it's a real problem, maybe it's in your head. Either way you've got to make your way around it somehow.

It's infinitely easier to change any of our posting patterns than to turn Ming around. That's the way it is, and quite frankly, it works alright.

	12-02-2001 18:33									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Maybe for once I am going to dig my heels in. I am not a bad person, I make friends easily, I am pleasant. I am not going to change my methods or mannerisms whether that results in 'discipline' or not...

	12-02-2001 18:37									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Provost Harrison on 02-12-2001 05:46 AM</font>
Well after what I can only describe as an unfruitful discussion with Ming on ICQ last night after he decided to close my thread in a quite unjustified manner
I would like to know why he has such a problem with me
when I do exactly as he does, all I get is abuse that I am just a spammer and never contribute anything good to the OT.

<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

When did I ever say you never contribute anything good to the OT. Your words, not mine. However, you seem to think that since you do contribute, it gives you the right to spam. That is not the case.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
He goes to ACOL and spams, he goes to CGN and spams, yet anyone who does the same here is squished.

<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

First, ACOL... I have broken no rules over there. They have different rules there. Spamming is against the rules here, but at ACOL, it is almost encouraged. As far as CGN goes, I have about 35 posts over there, gee I must be a spammer You might mention the rap thread, but even Reismark ended up unlocking the thread when he disagreed with the moderator...
AGAIN... SPAMMING IS AGAINST THE RULES AGAIN.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
I have never made DLs, I avoid flaming, I have trolled on only a few of my threads and have regretted it as it causes too much mess and unpleasantness.

<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Just because you follow some rules, doesn't give you the right to violate others.

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>
I would just like the record setting straight on this one Ming. I am not some child, you are not my headteacher, thus I do not wish to be the victim of your condescending attitude towards so many people at this place.
I have never violated the rules, I have told you if there is something you are happy with to discuss it with me on ICQ. Why does no one else have a problem with me except you? If this does not yield, I will be going to the administrators on this issue.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>
[/quote]

First, you are in the top 5 for complaints received about spamming... so it isn't just me. And when you spam, you are violating the rules here. You are welcome to disagree with the rules, but they are the rules. Just because you don't agree doesn't give you the right to break them. Feel free to take this up with the admin...

This thread is being moved to the Apolyton Forum where it belongs.

Now, yesterday, MarkG closed a thread in the Apolyton forum by Imran, and you went out and started a thread on the same subject... Here, I closed one of your threads, and you started a thread on the same subject.
So let me make myself clear... IF YOU START A THREAD ON THIS SUBJECT ANYWHERE, you will get a vacation.

No, you aren't a bad bloke, but when you break the rules...

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

	12-02-2001 18:41									#35
	Suffering from ads?

Well why don't these people tell me to my face? My ICQ is quite clearly visible, I do not hide away and attack in a cowardly manner. If you get this problem, direct them to me.

	12-02-2001 18:41									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Who else is in the top 5 for complaints about spamming? It does seem an odd thing if people are complaining to the mods about posters and not talking to them directly.


<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by MikeH (edited February 12, 2001).]</font>

	12-02-2001 18:49									#37
	Tired of ads?

You will have to ask them... All I know is that people complain. Five people seem to keep coming up as the worst offenders. Nobody else even comes close.

So you aren't the victim you make yourself out to be...


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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

	12-02-2001 19:04									#38
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Well it must be Dookie, Provost Harrison, Andz83 and Alexander's Horse in 4 out of the 5 spots, not sure on the 5th.

	12-02-2001 19:07									#39
	Increase Your PM Length

Actually, I get very few complaints about AH.
And there used to be 6 big time leaders in complaints, but one of them doesn't post that much anymore, even though he is back posting again

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

	12-02-2001 19:18									#40
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

And what is the nature of these complaints against me? I am just concerned that they are so spineless they cannot tell me to my face.

	12-02-2001 19:21									#41
	Remove this text

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Ming on 02-12-2001 09:07 AM</font>
but one of them doesn't post that much anymore, even though he is back posting again


<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

...and his handle is also that of the default leader of one of the light blue civs in CivII (not Eleanor Roosevelt).

	12-02-2001 19:28									#42
	Remove this text

I have noticed that the fastest reaction from ming comes against threads that combine "spam" with "flaming" against a group, eg: a not serious thread that is anti some religious group or nationality. He ponces on these much more quickly than other spam. As for the coofee shop, which has long since lost most of its story telling aspect and become almost pure spam, it appears to have some sort of de facto exemption from the spam rule, but I have seen some Ming caution posted to it when flamming started to erupt in it.

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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pendanticus
older richer & wiser than you
Did I mention that I like spellcheckers?

	12-02-2001 19:29									#43
	Inflate your Upload Space

PH... People complain, that's a fact. We tell people if they have a complaint to contact us... they do!

They complain that you spam... They also complain that a few other people spam.

Why would they come to you with those complaints... all you ever say is that you don't spam, and that you don't break the rules

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

	12-02-2001 19:34									#44
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Ming on 02-12-2001 09:07 AM</font>
Actually, I get very few complaints about AH.


<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

So I got 3 out of 5 right then?

	12-02-2001 19:34									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I like an Idea that someone else posted. It was something like having a spam forum where only the necesary rule of no lible, no extreme flaming, etc aplied, but where every post reduce your post count. All the non serious fun you could want, at a proportional price.

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Gaius Mucius Scaevola Sinistra
Pontificator Pendanticus
older richer & wiser than you
Did I mention that I like spellcheckers?

	12-02-2001 19:44									#46
	Suffering from ads?

Why not just make the Random chat forum not increase your post count?

	12-02-2001 19:49									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by MikeH on 02-12-2001 09:44 AM</font>
Why not just make the Random chat forum not increase your post count?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Uhhh... MikeH... we call it the Off Topic Forum here

You do raise a good point. However, it is my opinion that many people would then spam the on topic forums.
Most people stay on topic in the on topic forums... we would like to keep it that way



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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

	12-02-2001 19:51									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Why not scrap post counts altogether and save us all a lot of trouble?

The answer is we've been through this before and there are no changes regarding post counts on the horizon.

So therefore some people will keep spamming/"fun posting", other people will keep complaining - and by combining their efforts, these two groups of people will make eachother's and Ming's life miserable.

The post counts are the root of the problem. That and young people's need to up it at all costs.

	12-02-2001 19:52									#49
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

MikeH, they tried that once. Total anarchy was teased. If they were to implement it, this forum would die.

	12-02-2001 19:57									#50
	Support Apolyton

While there are many good arguments to drop post count, it seems most people like them. Every time a change is made (as Reismark points out), you would think it was the end of the world from all the comments.

The system put in place was discussed extensively, and was voted on.

With the exception of a few posters, the system works well

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Ming (edited February 12, 2001).]</font>

	12-02-2001 20:03									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Ming on 02-12-2001 09:57 AM</font>
The system put in place was discussed extensively, and was voted on.


<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Yeah, but that wasn't the post count itself, it was the Settler-yadda-yadda-Deity system that was put to a vote.

People don't want change until the change occurs and they get a chance to compare the before and after situations. That's why visionary leaders (admins?) sometimes have to make the change before we'll really know for sure.

Alas, vision is a scarce resource these days.

	12-02-2001 20:08									#52
	Increase Your PM Length

"The post counts are the root of the problem. That and young people's need to up it at all costs. "

I think young people are concerned with getting any at all.

"MikeH, they tried that once. Total anarchy was teased. If they were to implement it, this forum would die."

That implies that people are only posting to increase their post counts? Why do people care? Is it the titles?

"You do raise a good point. However, it is my opinion that many people would then spam the on topic forums.
Most people stay on topic in the on topic forums... we would like to keep it that way "

OK... here's a radical idea. Make new posters start of as deities and have your title gradually decrease as your post count increases.

	12-02-2001 20:11									#53
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Yes Winston... You are correct when you say the actual vote was on titles and not the post count system. However, the issue of post counts came up at that time and was also discussed extensively as part of the same discussion.

But to your comment about lack of vision...
I would have to disagree. MarkG and DanQ are constantly making changes to this site. You focus on one issue, but are ignoring all the other things that they do at this site. Now granted, most of the changes are focused on coverage of games... but this is a gaming site

They have shown a lot of vision in taking this site to new levels... As a gamer, I appreciate all the hard work they have put in to give me a place when I can discuss and learn more about games that I love.

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

	12-02-2001 20:22									#54
	Tired of ads?

I agree wholeheartedly with your views on the overall quality of the site Ming. Why do you think I keep coming back for more each time I kick myself out?

I wasn't talking about lack of vision with regards to the site itself, just as an extension of my thoughts on the post count-or-not-issue. The admins seem a bit stubborn when it comes to keeping post counts. Not that it has actually been subject to any broad discussion like you indicate - I disagree there - but everytime it's proposed to drop the post counts, the admins' response has been a negative one.

Maybe we need a broad discussion ending in some sort of poll to see how many would prefer a post count-free environment?

I think there are more posters who'd rather see post counts go than you seem to acknowledge.

	12-02-2001 20:29									#55
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

You may be right Winston... I don't really know.

I will admit that the Admin do seem to like post counts. I like them too... I feel that it adds to the overall sense of community. But, that is just my opinion.

Maybe a discussion on this topic would be valuable.
There have always been a few vocal people against the post count system. At least a discussion might bring in all sides of the issue.

Now granted... no matter where the discussion leads, it's still up to the owners of the site to decide what they want to do. It is their site, and I respect their right to do with it as they wish.

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net

	12-02-2001 20:39									#56
	Support Apolyton

Do you think I should set up a separate thread for such a discussion here in the Apolyton forum then? It couldn't hurt any, could it?

I have to leave work soon, but I might just create a thread on it from home tonight.

And yes, it seems we have no way to force Dan and Markos to do anything! Hrmph!!

I agree they do deserve respect for creating the site and for the way they choose to manage it on a daily basis. Generally speaking of course.

	12-02-2001 21:07									#57
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't see Provost as a spammer. Then maybe because he doesn't post spams in the OTF

I myself don't mind seeing the post count system go if that helps reducing spam. IIRC MtG also doesn't care about post counts.


Provost,

I did read the threads that are locked. As somebody (Ted?) pointed out, we can't tell what happened between you and Ming over ICQ. It's just your words against his.

	12-02-2001 21:18									#58
	Increase Your PM Length

While I'm at the office and don't have access to icq...

He basically complained that I closed his thread.
I said it was spam...
He said I was picking on him and that he doesn't spam.
He complained that I don't show him any respect.
I said something like I'm not going to discuss spam with people like him...
he asked... people like who...
I responded... people who spam...
(I may have then mentioned he's in the top five for complaints, but I might not have... not sure)

He was outraged... and I got snippy...
I said something like... "feel your outrage"... "so you are the victim here"... and then added some more snippy comments I can't remember...

he gave me the standard, well if you aren't going to discuss it... GOOD night... I sent some other comment that if he didn't spam, I would respect him.

That's how I remember it...

	13-02-2001 01:10									#59
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I would like to know just how it is decided when SPAM is not SPAM?

The larger number of the Threads on the OTF could, if interpretted harshly, be dismissed as SPAM but most are allowed to run their course.

Surely the entire purpose of having an OTF in the first place is to give people a place to Post irrelevancies that would otherwise infect the main Forums. If it's success or failure is to be judged by those criteria it must be counted an enormous success as SPAM is conspicuous by it's absence from anywhere else. Indeed I can only recall one multi-Forum Post by AH in the recent past.

Finally, does any of it really matter that much? If kiddies want to boost their ranking by posting trivia who does it really hurt? As long as nothing posted is defammatory or inflammatory why should it be censored? Nobody forces anyone either to read or reply to any Thread on the OTF and the majority seem good natured in spirit anyway. Really, who are the wronged and who are the wrongdoers in all of this and does anyone care about it anyway?

	13-02-2001 01:24									#60
	Tired of ads?

Spam is in the eye of the beholder!
And that is not meant to be a wise guy response... but is simply the truth. It is up to the mods and admin to make that determination... and we do, whether people agree or not.

You ask why people can't post just anything (besides hate, porn..) and the answer is simple. It would turn into a grave yard of TOTALLY meaninless crap. As an example, when some of the smarter posters found an unused forum here (area25), they filled it with pages and pages of posts and many of them just said "spam" or something equally as smart

The OTF is meant as a place for people with a common interest to discuss issues not related to games. Some serious, some silly. It started as a way to remove the political, religious and other off topic discussions from the on topic forums. We try to keep it as just that... a place for people to discuss stuff. When spam was really a problem, it was almost impossible to find ANY kind of discussion...
So spamming isn't allowed for that reason.

And yes, many of the threads are silly, not important, and don't amount to much... yet on the other hand, people complain that we don't allow silly threads.
You can't please everybody

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Ming
CivII & Off-Topic Forum Moderator
Ming@Apolyton.net