25-06-2004 03:02									#1
	The research strategy after Combustion/Sanitation Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

With Vox finishing Sanitation this coming turn and us finishing Combustion on the following turn, it's time to revisit our research plans for the near future.

Let's have a look at our options:

1) Espionage (2160 beakers)
allows Intelligence Agency and spies, which are extremely useful in watching what others are cooking

2) Scientific Method (2160 beakers)
"useless", but a prerequisite for Atomic Theory, which in turn is a prerequisite of Electronics. Electronics allows Hydro Plants and is a prerequisite of Motorized Transport.

3) Mass Production (3360 beakers)
allows battleships, carriers, submarines, and commercial docks; extremely useful tech for our naval power and a prerequisite for Motorized Transport

4) Flight (4320 beakers)
allows airports, airfields, fighters, and bombers; cancels the effect of Colossus; vital tech for our airpower

Now, we are quite clearly facing a triple-alliance which is trying to outresearch us - GoW and GS are likely doing the research, ND is supporting them with gold. To be able to at least keep in contact with the rest of the world, we need to maximize our research power (hospitals and workers being added to our cities should help a lot) and minimize our research costs.

Considering the 4t cap, we should look for useful (or at least mandatory) techs we can do in 4t, with minimal costs. Of the techs available, that would be Espionage and Scientific Method. Both are 2160 beakers and unlikely to drop in cost. We would be able to research these in 4t at 50% science (at about 300+gpt).

The other two techs, Flight and Mass Production, are likely to drop in cost within 10t max, as GS or GoW will undoubtedly research them (they have nothing else to research). Despite both these techs bringing important benefits, I would suggest we let others research them first and do them only after they get cheaper - this is especially true for the ultra-expensive Flight.

Means that IMHO, we should make a detour and do either Espionage or Scientific Method (you can bet that GS will not trade it to us). Espionage looks like a good research goal for Vox, as it is a dead end tech - doesn't matter how long they will need to research it, they will never be "blocking" us (which would/could be the case with Scientific Method).

So, here is my suggestion: Let's ask Vox to do Espionage now. Let's do Scientific Method at 50% (4t) ourselves now, saving cash. After finishing Scientific Method... we could either continue with Atomic Theory (if we increase our bpt output enough to do it in 4t) or do Mass Production in 4t.

The last issue is whether we want Vox to research at 100% or not. Rhothaerill emailed me asking about how fast we need them to research, as they are thinking of upgrading their feeble military (still having pikes around).

I would prefer funding their upgrades mostly from our coffers (I will ask Rhoth how much they need), keeping them at maximum research speed. We are not exactly short of money and with most our big, well-equipped cities growing past pop 12 within 3-4 turns, we should significantly increase our gold income (we'll be adding 1/2-2/3 of our workers to cities, which will be a double-boost... upkeep saving + extra commerce). Getting the extra techs from Vox seems to be more important to me than saving extra cash ourselves...

Thoughts?

	25-06-2004 03:11									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

Scientific Method sounds good to me. And yes, keep Vox at maximum research; we'll pay for upgrades.

	25-06-2004 04:34									#3
	Full PM-box? Change here!

When I first opened the thread, I thought "search flight", but I have changed my mind with Vondrack's post.

Indeed, it doesn't look we are facing an immediate military threat, but an immediate scientific threat. Researching 4-turns tech is strongly needed, to keep up with them, and to not give them price-reductions on their own research.

I still think we should research flight as soon as we are done with scientific method or electronics: planes will be so vital to our defense we can not simply dismiss them.

And keep Vox at maximal tech capacity, and pay for their military upgrades. Who knows, they may be very useful in researching a tech in a branch we're not investigating, in the future.

	25-06-2004 05:01									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

Agreed. Let's go with Sci Meth and let Vox handle the Espionage. I would assume the tri-liance is making the beeline for tanks, so as long as we can stay close behind, we should be in good shape. Until their alliance shatters, that is, then we'll be golden

	25-06-2004 11:45									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

Sounds good

	25-06-2004 21:39									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I agree with this plan.

	26-06-2004 18:36									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Agreed. Let's go with Sci Meth and let Vox handle the Espionage. I would assume the tri-liance is making the beeline for tanks, so as long as we can stay close behind, we should be in good shape.

We must be careful about it: it is not easy to have a common beeline among scientific allies. The tri-liance is always researching two or three different techs (depending whether ND is researching or not), so it is very possible one of them researches flight as soon as the tri-liance gets electronics + mass production.

I mean, the tri-liance can be researching techs on several branches, even right now.

quote: Until their alliance shatters, that is, then we'll be golden

Is there a real chance that their allaince shatters? I think they want us dead, before starting bickering among themselves.

	27-06-2004 14:42									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor We must be careful about it: it is not easy to have a common beeline among scientific allies. The tri-liance is always researching two or three different techs (depending whether ND is researching or not), so it is very possible one of them researches flight as soon as the tri-liance gets electronics + mass production. I mean, the tri-liance can be researching techs on several branches, even right now.

I am quite positive that both GoW and GS research, while ND is supporting them with gold. I bet that at this very moment, one of the researchers (the better/faster one) does Mass Production (for navy & Amphibious Warfare), the other is going for Flight. I would not be surprised if GS had Radio already.

quote: Originally posted by Spiffor Is there a real chance that their alliance shatters? I think they want us dead, before starting bickering among themselves.

I would hope that if we manage to avoid being openly attacked until the modern times, their alliance might become less "one for all"... once in the modern times, trading that key tech to someone who is still in the main (SS) race is, in a way, counterproductive, even if there is a strong opponent to fear... every tech brings one a step closer to victory. It helps a little that you both are getting so much ahead of another team that might be a rival to fear if having all those techs, while you are, in fact, helping to create a rival to fear more, because of actually having all those techs...

EDIT: one rather important thing to consider is that GS is likely to lack a key strategic resource - aluminium or uranium. That is going to stir things quite a lot, as they will be unable to win via SS.

	24-07-2004 15:37									#9
	Got spare money?

Just to let everybody know... I have not even consulted the next research goal and proposed it right away (see the turn plan), as it looks like a complete no-brainer to me. We're able to do Mass Production easily in 4t while actually making extra gold - and Mass Production allows a lot of stuff to be built: battleships, carriers, subs, and commercial docks. OTOH, Atomic Theory is a "useless", yet mandatory tech we would not be able to research in 4t at the moment, at least not without going into (big) red numbers. The situation might be noticeably better in 4t, because of so many cities of ours growing past pop 12.

I believe that the plan to let Voxes go for Flight after finishing Espionage is still valid, right? We do Mass Production now and then focus on the lower branch: Atomic Theory, Electronics, Motorized Transport, Radio. I guesstimate that we might finish just about around the same date - Voxes will probably be a bit faster, so they may go for Amphibious warfare then... Also, once they start with Flight, we may precisely determine how long it's going to take us to research the remaining techs and possibly tone their research rate down, so that they are not too fast (saving some of our gold, allowing us to research faster).