25-06-2004 21:57									#1
	{The List} Space Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Introduction
Space - the final frontier. While the development of space exploration is incredibly recent looking at the span of human history, it is also become profoundly important.

How should Civilization 4 handle space?

Summary
One of mankind's great achievements in the modern era, space flight has played an important role in shaping the world - from satellites to space stations. Space has always played a role in Civilization, ranging from constructing the Apollo Program to building a spaceship to Alpha Centauri. What directions should Civ 4 take space in?

Related Threads
The Moon

Table of Contents
1. The Space Race
2. Satellites
3. Diplomacy in Space
4. Military in Space
5. Space Colonization

The Ideas

1. The Space Race

1.1 Multi-tiered space race
In all the other civ games, the space portion of the game happens when you research "space flight" and build the apollo program. Then you immediately jump into building a large spaceship.

I was thinking that the atmosphere could be improved by adding details and such - How about while you are building the Apollo wonder, by making progress it pops up notifications for you and your opponents?

For example at 20% completion you might get the message "Your civilization has launched a manmade object into space", at 40% "You have put a man into space", at 60% "You have put a man in orbit", and eventually "You have put a man on the moon".

Something like this would, I think, make the space race actually seem a bit more like a realistic space race without necissarily making things more complicated. (ixnay)

1.2 Happiness and the space race
The space race should have an influence on happiness and vice versa (if another, enemy nation is winning the space race) (Herzog)

2. Satellites

2.1 Types of Satellites
Research Satellites: Whether it's inward (weather & habitat monitoring), or outward (Hubble and Chandra space telescopes), satellites are important for research. They could give a set amount or a small percentage boost to research. (Laszlo)

Commercial Satellites: Bonuses to commerce through better communications, GPS technology, etc. Prospecting can reveal new supplies of resources like oil and better managing of resources like fisheries and farms (bonuses limited to bonus tiles, aka - whales, spice, etc). (Laszlo)

Television Satellites: Broadcasting over the world over, satellites help spread the owner's culture. The U.S. spends money to ensure outside news coverage in China and Middle Eastern countries. They can't do anything to stop the "propoganda" other than ineffectual bans on satellite dishes. (Laszlo)

2.1.1 Spy Satellites
I think a new unit we could have in the modern age is spy satelites. They would be based in your capital (and move with your capital-essentially indestructible until your civ got wiped out) and they would simply give you the ability to see one large map area and all the units moving there (like a permanent recon mission, with a large field of vision). (GePap)

If not revealing the whole world, spy satellites would at least monitor a large swath of it. Perhaps launching several would allow the civ near-complete coverage. I think that they should be one-time use like missiles, but with an actual lifetime--say, 20-30 turns. They could even have a failure rate at launch that decreases with experience. They wouldn't in fact have to be actual units once you pick their placement, though for the sake of familiarity it might be better to keep it as one.
Increasing resolution. Starts out at city and terrain scale, moves up to include roads and rail, eventually allows individual unit tracking. Happens automatically as technology matures (time and experience with building). (Laszlo)

Remove the fog of war on a selected area. The more satellites you have the more fog you can remove. I wouldn't reveal all units though. I think that some units should remain invisible to satellites, or units remain invisible in certain terrains. Infantry units would barely be visible to spy satellites, and units hidden in jungle would be nigh on impossible to spot aswell. (Dauphin)

Maybe it could reveal all exposed units, while units in cities and fortresses would have limited exposure (say only units that have moved into it this turn and the first unit garrisoned). (Robovski)

In cities it should reveal most, if not all, city improvements. (Dauphin)

Display all units on the ground ina certain area, even in a City. That is a HUGE benefit and more than enough reason to have such a unit. The limitations should be that it is expensive and late in the tech tree, and you assign it one spot on the map, and that is it- so that you could not reuse a single satelite over and over. (GePap)

2.2 Satellite Wonders
The Terrestrial Planet Finder could be required before setting off a colony ship. Wouldn't want to spend all that time and money all to arrive at a barren star, now would we? (Laszlo)

The GPS system as a small wonder- it could be built after a certain number of satelites are built- then you buld it, and as a consequence you could carry out precision strikes, or conversely, the bombardment power of air units and artillery increase by, say, 2. (GePap)


3. Diplomacy in Space

3.1 Outer Space Treaties
Have an Outer Space Treaty that would prevent those who sign it from militarizing space. Of course, you could just not sign the treaty and launch all the orbital weapons you wanted, but risk being shunned by other nations. (ixnay)

4. Military in Space

4.1 Orbiting weapons
Some weapons in space (orbiting nukes) could be cool. (ixnay)

Well, the big question is really how far are you going to let tech advance? If you are only going to have techs up to a bit in the future (like the last 3 games) then space is not going to get hugely developed - but there is scope for play, like the Apollo wonder, satellite technologies, space stations. Space could be militarized as weapon platforms quite easily right now, as could solar power satellites be introduced - these things are more a metter of will and resources as opposed to technical ability right now. (Robovski)

NO Weapons Satellites. I know everybody gets excited about space-based lasers and stuff, but I don't think satellites as weapons make sense to incorporate. Real-life military satellites are many, but they're reconnaisance tools, not weapons. Research into Star Wars-type programs are expensive and haven't been shown effective. (Laszlo)

5. Space Colonization

5.1 What to colonize
As for the space race- I still think the current implementation is silly- if only because the idea of an interstellar spaceship carrying tens of thousands of colonists at the tech level of 2000 is patently absurd. Maybe the grand prize could be to set up a mars base, which is far more probable. (GePap)

It would also make sense that you need to locate a suitable planet to send your 'Alpha Centauri' Spaceship to colonise.. perhaps there could be a few starsystems to colonise at different distances. Each civ could colonise a separate star system, as its unrealistic 2 civs at war would colonise the same planet ,by the time such startravel tech existed. (Admiral PJ)

It's maybe more a theme for an expension, but why not implement real space colonization.
when you progress in space age, you can send a mission to moon and further (as tech progresses) and get another world to conquer, just like earth. (slick909)

5.2 The spaceship
I would like a more complex space ship. (Master Zen)

Last edited by ixnay on 15-08-2004 at 23:55

	25-06-2004 21:59									#2
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Reserved for overflow

	25-06-2004 23:00									#3
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Well, at first let me state that I'm one of that brand of people who think the game should end not too much in the future, maybe 2050.
I'm also favoring the idea that Civ4 keeps the Space Race, it's simply a Civilization classic and shouldn't be removed.
Space should not be integrated as a layer with tiles or something - restrict its implementation to a number of city improvements, wonders etc. But it could be made that actually launching built spaceships from a spaceport in order to be allowed to develop some key technologies first or to allow spionage satellites which can give you city/troop information.

	26-06-2004 01:02									#4
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I really liked SMAC's satellites concept. Building lots of food, energy or shields satellites was annoying but the defense ones were great. I think they should take this concept and make it a bit more complicated to add more flavor to modern age warfare. Maybe allow satellites to bombard land units(lasers and stuff) or do reconnaissance on any tile in the world.

	26-06-2004 01:52									#5
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If the game extends into a "space age", I think a few space borne improvements with civwide benefits like the satelites from SMAC or maybe a space elevator wonder would be fine.


On Eli's idea. I think a new unit we could have in the modern age is spy satelites. They would be based in your capital (and move with your capital-essentially indestructible until your civ got wiped out) and they would simply give you the ability to see one large map area and all the units moving there (like a permanent recon mission, with a large field of vision). Only if the game advances into a early space age, do i think we should allow space borne weapons.

As for the colonization idea- I still think it silly- fine, the one idea of a non-conquest victory, but with diplo victory and culture victory, why maintain the silly space race?

Maybe we can add a wonder victory.

	26-06-2004 08:33									#6
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Some weapons in space (orbiting nukes) could be cool.

A possibility to combine this with increased diplomacy would be to have an Outer Space Treaty that would prevent those who sign it from militarizing space. Of course, you could just not sign the treaty and launch all the orbital weapons you wanted, but risk being shunned by other nations.

	26-06-2004 14:45									#7
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Well, the big question is really how far are you going to let tech advance? If you are only going to have techs up to a bit in the future (like the last 3 games) then space is not going to get hugely developed - but there is scope for play, like the Apollo wonder, satellite technologies, space stations. Space could be militarized as weapon platforms quite easily right now, as could solar power satellites be introduced - these things are more a metter of will and resources as opposed to technical ability right now.

	27-06-2004 12:39									#8
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quote: Originally posted by ixnay Some weapons in space (orbiting nukes) could be cool. A possibility to combine this with increased diplomacy would be to have an Outer Space Treaty that would prevent those who sign it from militarizing space. Of course, you could just not sign the treaty and launch all the orbital weapons you wanted, but risk being shunned by other nations.

sounds good to have against Sid level AI

	27-06-2004 17:05									#9
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quote: Originally posted by GePap they would simply give you the ability to see one large map area and all the units moving there (like a permanent recon mission, with a large field of vision).

I was thinking this idea aswell - remove the fog of war on a selected area. The more satellites you have the more fog you can remove.

I wouldn't reveal all units though. I think that some units should remain invisible to satellites, or units remain invisible in certain terrains. Infantry units would barely be visible to spy satellites, and units hidden in jungle would be nigh on impossible to spot aswell.

	27-06-2004 21:11									#10
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Maybe it could reveal all exposed units, while units in cities and fortresses would have limited exposure (say only units that have moved into it this turn and the first unit garrisoned).

	28-06-2004 00:06									#11
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In cities it should reveal most, if not all, city improvements.

	28-06-2004 02:48									#12
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Individual people would be hard to spot. An entire division of infantry is hard not to notice for a spy satellite. In zoomed-in mode, modern sats can read car number plates if angled correctly.

	29-06-2004 04:41									#13
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Here's a thought that's been running through my head today:

In all the other civ games, the space portion of the game happens when you research "space flight" and build the apollo program. Then you immediately jump into building a large spaceship.

I was thinking that the atmosphere could be improved by adding details and such - How about while you are building the Apollo wonder, by making progress it pops up notifications for you and your opponents?

For example at 20% completion you might get the message "Your civilization has launched a manmade object into space", at 40% "You have put a man into space", at 60% "You have put a man in orbit", and eventually "You have put a man on the moon".

Something like this would, I think, make the space race actually seem a bit more like a realistic space race without necissarily making things more complicated.

	29-06-2004 05:04									#14
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I like space stuff that is currently possible or feasible. ie. satellites, commercial/military, space stations (maybe a small wonder)

i don't want a space elevator or impossible things like that. Maybe a commercial launch platform giving +commerce would be at the bleeding edge...

	29-06-2004 05:58									#15
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I would like a more complex space ship and perhaps only a FEW future techs with things which are close to being feasable at this moment, more or less what sleepy mentioned in the last post.

I don't want Civ4 to go overboard like CTP did. Keep it nice and simple. It should however incorporate some SMAC-style ideas like the killer satelites or whatever they were (don't remember well)

	29-06-2004 12:09									#16
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and space race should have an influence in happiness and vice versa (if anoter, history-enemy nation is winning the space race)

	29-06-2004 14:30									#17
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What's possible is more a matter of will rather than tech for lots of things, like solar power satellites, weapon platforms, asteroid mining, colonies...

But tech makes a huge difference in cost and effectiveness; and some techs are essential - like nanotech for a space elevator - that depend on how likely you thing that technology will mature inside the scope of the endgame.

I'd say a space elevator is about as feasible as a fusion power plant.

	30-06-2004 01:40									#18
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quote: Originally posted by lajzar Individual people would be hard to spot. An entire division of infantry is hard not to notice for a spy satellite. In zoomed-in mode, modern sats can read car number plates if angled correctly.

Spy satellites, when directed at the Balkans, were fooled by the presence of balsa wood tanks. Detection is not as simple as you would imagine, or at least if you know simple camouflage technics you can circumvent their power.

Having the abilty to read car number plates is a soundbite and not true. Laws of diffraction mean that the maximum resolution of a satellite viewing in near ultra violet with a 2m aperture* is about 0.2m at 350km (the lowest end of Low Earth Orbit). That is, if you ignore all other effects such as defects in optics, atmospheric aberration, the need to see in more than just near ultra-violet or the fact you aren't in a very stable orbit at 350km, a satellite will only see things to a resolution of 10cm. Damn impressive I'll grant you, but no licence plate reader.

Of course the issue isn't being able to see the detail, its being able to see the wood for the trees. Suppose you have 100 satellites that could read one licence plate every second they would take 8 years to read the licence plate of every car in the US alone. Similarly, even if you could theoretically see everything going on in a country, you physically can't have your eyes everywhere at once. There is always going to be things going unnoticed, especially if you understand the limitations of satellites.

*for comparison Hubble's aperture is 2.4m and it cost billions to build.

	11-07-2004 23:29									#19
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it's maybe more a theme for an expension, but why not implement real space colonization.
when you progress in space age, you can send a mission to moon and further (as tech progresses) and get another world to conquer, just like earth.
it would again give much land to expand and would only need new graphics, techs, terrain etc.
it think it would make the game more dynamic in later stages.

Last edited by slick909 on 13-07-2004 at 03:57

	29-07-2004 13:50									#20
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I like the idea of a Satellite unit. Haven't played Conquests (I'm still a Civ2 loyalist) to see how they're implemented, so could someone tell me what they're like in that? Here were my own ideas:

If not revealing the whole world, spy satellites would at least monitor a large swath of it. Perhaps launching several would allow the civ near-complete coverage. I think that they should be one-time use like missiles, but with an actual lifetime--say, 20-30 turns. They could even have a failure rate at launch (Your trireme satellite has been lost at sea in space. ) that decreases with experience. They wouldn't in fact have to be actual units once you pick their placement, though for the sake of familiarity it might be better to keep it as one.

Below, some other ideas on the satellites theme, playing with the possibilities.

-Increasing resolution. Starts out at city and terrain scale, moves up to include roads and rail, eventually allows individual unit tracking. Happens automatically as technology matures (time and experience with building).

-Research Satellites. Whether it's inward (weather & habitat monitoring), or outward (Hubble and Chandra space telescopes), satellites are important for research. They could give a set amount or a small percentage boost to research.

-New Wonder candidate perhaps. The Terrestrial Planet Finder could be required before setting off a colony ship. Wouldn't want to spend all that time and money all to arrive at a barren star, now would we?

-Commercial Satellites. Bonuses to commerce through better communications, GPS technology, etc. Prospecting can reveal new supplies of resources like oil and better managing of resources like fisheries and farms (bonuses limited to bonus tiles, aka - whales, spice, etc).

-Television Satellites. Broadcasting over the world over, satellites help spread the owner's culture. The U.S. spends money to ensure outside news coverage in China and Middle Eastern countries. They can't do anything to stop the "propoganda" other than ineffectual bans on satellite dishes.

-NO Weapons Satellites. I know everybody gets excited about space-based lasers and stuff, but I don't think satellites as weapons make sense to incorporate. Real-life military satellites are many, but they're reconnaisance tools, not weapons. Research into Star Wars-type programs are expensive and haven't been shown effective.

Add to that the fact that laser-equipped satellites capable of taking out stuff on the ground necessarily means that Earth-based lasers could take out the satellite ten times more easily (only one of them is a sitting duck in that situation).

	29-07-2004 19:06									#21
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Implementation of a satelite unit should not be difficult at all- in fact, anyone could probalby do it in the current game with a unit that has recon ability, ICBM ability for the unlimited range, but 0 bombardment- now. The one problem might be interdiction, though I have never seen a recon unit shot down.

As for the space race- I still think the current implementation is silly- if only because the idea of an interstellar spaceship carrying tens of thousands of colonists at the tech level of 2000 is patently absurd.

Maybe the grand prize could be to set up a mars base, which is far more probable.

	29-07-2004 19:44									#22
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Perhaps, a spy satellite could tell, that in certain spot on the globe, there is Something. As tech progresses, one could tell difference between infantry and worker, and further, how many infantry are stacked. Along with other units. Of course, one could build those cardboard tanks, to fool atleast other human players to think certain place is well defended, when it's not. Cheap to build, no maintenance units.

	29-07-2004 22:18									#23
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Why make it so complex- simply display all units on the ground ina certain area, even in a City. That is a HUGE benefit and more than enough reason to have such a unit. The limitations should be that it is expensive and late in the tech tree, and you assign it one spot on the map, and that is it- so that you could not reuse a single satelite over and over.

Another possible idea is the GPS system as a small wonder- it could be built after a certain number of satelites are built- then you buld it, and as a consequence you could carry out precision strikes, or conversely, the bombardment power of air units and artillery increase by say 2.

	30-07-2004 17:27									#24
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I like that idea about the precision strikes, GePap. That's a realistic war benefit, to say something like, "Destroy this city's Temple" to a missile or bombard unit, sort of like the Spy unit's ability in Civ2.

	04-08-2004 21:27									#25
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Land and Space based telescopes would be nice, Radio telescopes can allow the SETI wonder to be built.

Currently hundreds of planets have been discovered outside our solar system using Telescopes, by measuring the gravitational wobble of stars affected by large planets.
I think this could be put into civ4. First from the 18th century you start discovering planets in the solar system, then later as you send space probes to them you gain Scientific Research points from the Physics knowledge discovered (understanding planetary formation, geology, how the earth and universe formed..)

It would also make sense that you need to locate a suitable planet to send your 'Alpha Centauri' Spaceship to colonise.. perhaps there could be a few starsystems to colonise at different distances. Each civ could colonise a separate star system, as its unrealistic 2 civs at war would colonise the same planet ,by the time such startravel tech existed.

Satellites are a must.. remember their communication and Navigational advantages. (GPS location systems)

	05-08-2004 00:26									#26
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Glad to read these space ideas that don't include bizarre, futuristic techs or objectives.

Spy sattelites(Wernazuma III), multi-staged space race (ixnay), precision strikes (GePap)... I'm very much in favor of these and other similar ideas.

If it's like CtP, I won't like it.

	15-08-2004 23:56									#27
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Bumpity bump now that I have an awesome first post in the thread with actual content.

	16-08-2004 01:30									#28
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Can we have SDI sats that stop nukes (with a chance of failure) everywhere or a large region that can be moved on a turn by turn basis?

	16-08-2004 05:08									#29
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Space - a bad idea

	17-08-2004 17:31									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Space - a bad idea

Space - a good idea

Although I am not yet convinced that space based weapons or even actual space units are needed I do think that space has an important task in civ.

Look at the attention the mars rovers got when they reached Mars. It clearly boosted the morale and national pride. Same for the moon landing...

Also the space race has a lot of civilian spin offs so the 'research tree' so take it into account too. ex. as long as you don't have have build one or two launch pads (as a city improvement or tile improvement but very expensive!) certain research is not available (except via exchanges with other civ that do have a lauchpad).

once you have your launchpad you should be able to build satellites, launch missions to the moon, mars... they all have to be expensive so not every Civ is able to create them independently but some kind of trade is possible. Ex. they can build a satellite but they need to rent your launchpad and rocketbooster...