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Bloody Monk
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austin, tx
May 2001
time: 23:37
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cavebear,
After the 1120a period, you brought up an interesting point. I wonder if you remember this...?
quote:
Just wanted to point out that we have been allowed to build additional cities since 1040 AD... I'm surprised we were not prepared to take advantage of that at the first opportunity. |
doy mentioned the lack of caravels, but that ignores the cause. The cause, and it seems a regular thing for this game, is not keeping a focus on what is essential. You guys were not ready with caravels in 1040, indeed, not until 1766, because of a lackadaisical approach to Science. At the point of discovery you had eigth, 8, EIGHT!!, additional (off path) scrolls. Even allowing for the +1 benifit of getting Philosophy, that's still five unneeded (at that time) techs. For this Island Start there was no higher priority than getting Navigation. No one has apparently given a single thought to the consequenses of these unfocussed indulgences. Until, that is, it's too late.
This is a cautionary tale of sorts offered in the hope that folk might think things thru a bit more before making their suggestions and choices. Consequences, the ramifications and opportunity costs of one choice over some others, and how that choice will get fulfilled in gameplay, have to be considered.
If the discussion centered around not trying to build so many white goods at one time because of lack of time and cash, then why, I ever so respectfully ask, did you add another laundramat to the mix?? A friggin Bank!! You can not be serious. And you STILL have the second boat asleep even though there is no longer any rational, if there ever was one, to keep it in port. It's not like there isn't a need for a boat to scope out the coastline SE of the colony.
The only way to get quick cash is through deliveries; but there is no chance of that if you don't build camels. And if you use the coin from the current delivery to rush that Bank, the opportunity cost is not building white goods in the colony and not rushing the next camel. Even if the current delivery does not free up a supply slot, starting a camel (rather than a Bank) was the better play because you could switch, at no cost, to a musket to better defend the Capital, after the delivery made the impossibility of another commodity apparent.
I really do not understand this format and the ways you folk go about playing. Someday, if we survive, Apolytonia will need a Bank, just as someday, Trade would be up for research, and all the colony cities will need colosseums; but, all came before their time, out of sequence. This lack of coherent focus has made this game a whole lot harder than it had to be.
Is that the lesson?? That Demo Games are not meant to be successful; just frustrating??
Monk
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloody Monk
Is that the lesson?? That Demo Games are not meant to be successful; just frustrating??
Monk |
 Comes from having not one, but half a dozen or more people forming the vision of the nation. If this were a pure Despotic single player game sure, we may well have managed as you suggest.
BUT, then again, looking at those techs I agree with each and every one of them. We didn't do too shabbily there.
Lessee...
As of 1380AD, when we were getting close to Navigation and heading that way (I know as I was becoming more involved at this time), we had 10 techs away from the Navigation path.
The reason we chose all of these I can explain.
1. Trade
When we got to Navigation we knew we would be far behind in a hostile world. The uses of Caravels were two-fold: to hopefully find some land to settle (we knew this might take some time to find unused land) and secondly to trade with other civs. We would not be able to offer them anything except a tempting target, so we chose Caravans, and had some ready to go when we got our first Caravel. Not a bad choice, I think. This also explains the off-Navigation techs of Currency, Code of Laws and Bronze Working. That's 4 techs explained.
2. Different governments.
We are first and foremost a Democracy game. Otherwise we would not have set ourselves such restrictions as a challenge. We decided pre-game to have governance reflecting the government we were in. For more people to have more say, we needed Monarchy and the Republic. Also as pre-requisites for these were needed Code of Laws, Literacy and Writing. That's another 4 techs explained (and CoL again), for a running total of 8 of our off-plan techs.
3. Xinning
Prior to getting Navigation we needed a way to actually get enough science going so we could reach it before the end of the game. Xinning came to mind, for which we needed Libraries, ie Writing. To most effectively Xin we should be at our top population, which necessitated an Aqueduct resulting from Construction (9th tech). Republic also helps us get the most out of Xinning here.
Philosophy(tech 10) we of course went for for the free tech. We got it too 
That's all ten off-path techs explained. I daresay we made the right choices, but someone may disagree, and if presented with figures or somesuch that prove we did not get enough benefit out of any of them pre-Navigation to make the delay worthwhile, I will accept it. The fact is we didn't know how long things would take, whether we would have anything close enough that Caravels without Caravans would be of any use, and we certainly didn't believe we could get to Navigation quickly enough without Xinning!
It's easy to look back and say how things could have been better, but AAMOF I don't really see any room for improvement!
Last edited by MrWhereItsAt on 29-06-2004 at 16:58
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MrWhereItsAt
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New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Bloody Monk
And therein rests the frustration. Could you be more defensive?? You were 700yrs late getting off the rock and you are chest-thumping proud of that. (And whatever is AAMOF??)
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But without the effective Xinning point we reached, could we have made it that far that quickly? I thought those techs were needed so we would get to even a Medieval level of tech before the end of the game. If the numbers prove otherwise then of course I accept that, as I have not figured it out myself.
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A question is in order. Just how wonderfully well did it work out for you to have your Republican camels and no caravels?? From Philosophy you could have gone straight for Navigation and been there ~820a. You (any of you??) can't imagine how that might have been an improvement??
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Not necessarily, actually. In this case we were lucky enough to find unsettled land really close. What if (as is more likely on a crowded, warmongering world) we had not? What benefit would beelining to Caravels had for us? We would know where we would eventually be able to send Caravans, and maybe had an alliance or two signed against us. In this game I was led to believe the AI was extremely hostile to weak powers on Deity, and I think we have seen that is the case.
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If you do not care to learn how to think and play this game strategically, there is little possibility of improving your game. But, that's okay; it is after all a Democracy.
Monk |
If I get the chance later tonight I might find myself an ancient save and play it with a straight beeline to Navigation, and THEN trade. We should then all be able to see what the actual difference is. My feeling is that without the Xinning at least we will get there a lot later than you suggest, but then I am the one who needs to learn here, so I may be completely wrong.
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Bloody Monk
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austin, tx
May 2001
time: 23:37
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MWIA,
Your point about Xinning is well taken. Without Republic and the extra arrows from Rep Gov't, the pace of research would not be the same.
But go back to the 820a save and look at the Science screen. If you substitute Pott, Sea, Math, and Astro for BW, Curr, Trade, and Republic, then you could have been just about ready to get Navigation (IF--the pace of research had been the same). The switch to Republic was not until 380, when only three techs would have been needed (six needed less three offpath = three). Xinning under Monarchy size 5 compares favorably to Republic size 7 (9T -v- 7T).
So, while the pace of research would have been faster in Republic, it would not have been dramatically faster. Navigation would have been possible somewhat after 900, I believe.
Again, what is AAMOF??
Monk
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Bloody Monk
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austin, tx
May 2001
time: 23:37
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cavebear,
It's been three days and no one has come to your aid with how to deal with this new situation. This is pretty surprising. In the spirit of the game and recognizing that mine is merely one of many voices, I cast caution to the winds and offer some suggestions.
A) Discover War Code overnight. We need to get WC before delivering the camel so that most of it's beakers are not wasted. And we don't want the camel hanging around too long. You can do this by bumping the Science slider to 70% for one turn.
B)The Explorer. It is very risky to send that dude East. You are begging for a war declaration before we are ready to fight. Would not it make sense to send him down to the bottom of the peninsula as an early warning in case the Persians send an army thru our back door?? If you don't want to divert him from exploring to the East, at least send the non Fanatic down there to keep an eye on things. Or send them both and set the Explorer hut hunting along the pole to the East.
C) The Settler. Rehome the settler to Malaca as it has more food than Utica. Utica will then be able to grow, too.
D)Changes in City Build Orders. I've raised Cain about all the white goods on order, so this is an attempt to make lemonade. Getting Mob War is a blessing that changes all bets. It even gets past the obsolescence of Barracks problem. Change orders to Barracks in four cities, 2 Whales, Cartenna, Panama, and Utica. Keep Malica building it's Colosseum as it's food surplus will grow it faster, or build another Barrack there as well. Gades will get it's Temple rushed with the Beads delivery. It can then be set, along with the other three cities, to build either Settler or Horse. Why Horse?? To be the cheapest future martial law garrisons when we switch to Monarchy. If you move the slider to 70% Science then Apoly'a can wait one more turn as Bank. But I suggest moving the mine to sea for one turn and switching to camel if a slot opens up with the Beads delivery. It should then be rushed.
This will give 4 or 5 cities with Barracks making Vet Tanks. With this we can go hunting, I think.
Monk
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cavebear
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of the Pleistocene
Oct 1999
time: 00:37
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(Monk) " All I'm saying is, a Bank is not a bad thing; I just don't think it is the best thing now. Building a Bank to completion will long delay our next camel. At some point (could be now), a delivery will not free up a slot; but, until then, I think we have to ring that bell as hard and as often as we can."
I agree. I did not pay attention to how long the Bank would take to build.  It is nearly impossible for me to pass up an good investment.  Caravans are a better investment, though, because of the bonus beakers.  I think the gold is close to even (in the short term) due to the quality of trade goods we have available to us. Long-term, the Bank pays off better in gold, but there are other things we need NOW, as you aptly point out.
I think we should either change the Bank to Barracks (4 more turns) or take the 1 turn loss of 7 shields and switch to a Caravan (and take the 7 shields out of my salary  ). At least, if we switch to Caravan on the current turn (1865), it will only cost us 1 turn of shields. 
The 1865 turn isn't over until the next session player hits enter. We can still make some adjustments and changes. 
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