13-02-2001 01:44									#1
	What's your opinion on post counts? Enter the AD-FREE zone

Today, in another context, it occured to me that we haven't really had an extensive debate of the pros and cons of having a system of post counting.

It's evident that many posters have an opinion of the post count system - we can tell from the numerous times it's mentioned in threads, whether it's a poster who shares his joy of having reached a thousand posts, or one poster accusing another of being obsessed with his post count.

The interesting question in my opinion is this: Are there enough posters who support having a post count system that can justify keeping it? We don't really know, since we haven't had a real debate on it.

(I note of course that even in the unlikely event of all posters wanting to abolish post counts, it would still be exclusively for Dan and Markos to decide, since it is their site. So this is just an attempt to weigh the support of the post counts among the posters, for the admins to act on - or not - as they see fit.)

I for one would like to see the forums rid of post counts entirely. I don't believe they serve any useful purpose but instead:

• encourage spam
• increase the bickering about reductions/lost posts/mutual accusations of spamming
• provide more work for the moderators of the OT trying to keep the notorious spammers and "fun posters" at bay

	13-02-2001 01:59									#2
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I vote for the second, let's get rid of them

I'm trying hard to get mine high, but it earsn me nothing but trouble

let's get rid of them, it will be the best for all

	13-02-2001 02:13									#3
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I like the post count system and the titles that go along with them (spoken like a true Deity )

I really think they add to the total sense of the community called Apolyton.
But I also like them for another practical reason.
The post reduction is another weapon in our arsenal for maintaining the rules...
Granted, many don't care, and it isn't much of a threat, but it does matter to many... as can usually be seen by the complaints people make every time somebody gets one

	13-02-2001 02:18									#4
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I don't see any reason for post counting... Can you count an objective reason to support the system, Ming?

	13-02-2001 02:23									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Chaos Warrior on 02-12-2001 04:18 PM</font>
I don't see any reason for post counting... Can you count an objective reason to support the system, Ming?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I thought I gave two? Both of which I truely believe are good reasons!

	13-02-2001 02:33									#6
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But in what way do you think post counts add to the sense of community Ming? Wouldn't you say that it's the content of posts rather than how many you've made in the past that's adding to the community?

And why on Earth keep the post counts just so you can reduce them? If they weren't a factor, people would have a lot less rules to break, wouldn't they?

	13-02-2001 02:33									#7
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Sorry Ming, must have been stoned

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Ming on 02-12-2001 04:13 PM</font>
I like the post count system and the titles that go along with them (spoken like a true Deity )

I really think they add to the total sense of the community called Apolyton.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

now this is not a reason I consider a good one. I mean, you put it as a traditional thing, don't you. Well, that's not a true reason for actually having them, IMHO

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font>But I also like them for another practical reason.
The post reduction is another weapon in our arsenal for maintaining the rules...
Granted, many don't care, and it isn't much of a threat, but it does matter to many... as can usually be seen by the complaints people make every time somebody gets one
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

OK, this one makes real sense
If there wasn't any system for you mods n admins to play God , it would be harder to keep order on the board. But I'm sure there are other possibilites to punish... just banning will do it, don't you think?

	13-02-2001 02:36									#8
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by winston on 02-12-2001 04:33 PM</font>
And why on Earth keep the post counts just so you can reduce them? If they weren't a factor, people would have a lot less rules to break, wouldn't they?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

well, there will always be spammers, als owithout post counts... and the admins have more control over them when they're able to punish them. but vacationsshould be just fine here.

	13-02-2001 02:41									#9
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As far as I'm concerned you can get rid of the post counts.

If you want civish titles you could also base them on how long people have been registed, for example become a chieftain after a month, warlord after three months etc.

And postcount reductions only have an effect on people who spam to raise their postcount in the first place. If there are spammers who just like to spam, but don't care about postcount they also won't be stopped by the thread of a reduction.

	13-02-2001 02:45									#10
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by winston on 02-12-2001 04:33 PM</font>
But in what way do you think post counts add to the sense of community Ming? Wouldn't you say that it's the content of posts rather than how many you've made in the past that's adding to the community?
And why on Earth keep the post counts just so you can reduce them? If they weren't a factor, people would have a lot less rules to break, wouldn't they?
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

Your last question first...
People are going to spam whether it adds to their post count or not. Yes, it matters to some, but many just want to see there name in "lights". They distrupt normally good discussions (or attempt to) just because they can. Our options now are a warning (which never seems to do much good against the hard cores), a post count reduction (which works for some) or a restriction (which works, but only until they come back) I like having the extra weapon.

As to the first...
I will agree with you that content is far more important than raw number. And I will also say that some of the best things posted on the on topic forums comes from some of the newbees... so post counts/titles are a not measure of really anything.

But for some, the titles (which do come from the raw number of post) makes them feel like they have contributed to the site. They are proud they have had stuff to contribute... comments... strategies... analysis... or even raising questions that others can answer.

Many sites use titles/post counts as badges of honor...
Apolyton is a community... and it's just another way of belonging for some people.

	13-02-2001 03:09									#11
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I agree with Paul, that the people who spam regardless of post counts won't be intimidated by the threat of a reduction.

As for the people who spam because of their post count: If the post counts weren't there to begin with, they'd behave and there'd be little need for reductions.

There Ming, we've run circles around you logically! Keeping post counts in order to be able to reduce them at some point just doesn't cut it.

As for the community thing, we agree that content is more important than number of posts. Now I won't rule out that post counts themselves have a "comforting" effect on some, but since this is first and foremost a civ-site, on topic posts are what really count. And you hardly ever hear on topic posters pay attention to post counts. One single post like oedo's xxxo post can make a World of difference, post counts or not.

And if we were to get rid of post counts, I bet no one would dread it after one month - quite the contrary, we'd get a qualitatively richer, more community-like set of forums as a free bonus.

	13-02-2001 03:11									#12
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Post counts = more posts

As someone already explained once this what causes people to make that extra post. And this keeps many(much more than you think) people as frequent visitors.

So this is good for Apolyton.


Keep the post counts!

	13-02-2001 03:36									#13
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How about this: keep the count for those who want it, but give a choice of something else(or nothing at all) for others. I think the people who care about it will scream that this is a bad idea, but at least you will know where they stand. From my time here, I notice that the most active in the post counts are quite often the most disruptive in the posts(The Word association thread is an example of this). Ming makes a good argument for keeping it, and I don't think that the titles are bad, it just seems the quest for higher titles is the problem. If I have to choose having them or not, I say keep them. The jerks will just find another way to ruin things.

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	13-02-2001 04:19									#14
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Eli, that logic appears a bit odd to me

I think you only want to keep your post count! Look at me, I'd have no problem giving it away, although I'm very close to Emperor!

	13-02-2001 04:41									#15
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Hmmm... now that the drive home from work is done...

Winston... You are making my head hurt just reading your post
But seriously, PR's are still a good threat... While I agree with your circle logic on spammers and post count, there are many people that care about post counts who aren't spammers... for them, it is effective. (No spamming is only ONE of the rules here)

Eli brings up a good point too. It does encourage posing... and from a traffic perspective... it's a good thing for Apolyton. Now granted, one might use that logic to say everybody should spam... but more traffic and more spam are two different things...

	13-02-2001 05:25									#16
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Oh dear. Take an aspirin Ming.

I won't buy into keeping post counts because post count reductions are allegedly a good threat. It's like advocating speeding on the highway because speeding tickets are a good deterrant.

Besides, I don't even think it's that good a threat. The few people - if any - who like their post count but don't ever spam aren't the ones causing any problems. So where's the need for a threat. Another group of posters who also like their post counts and do spam are the ones causing problems. And I bet you they'd cease spamming if we dropped the post counts.

I'm not out to make this personal or anything, but look at Mao (hi Mao!). When he reached the level of 10,000 posts where there was no reason to improve his post count anymore, he virtually stopped posting. Before that, he posted 10,000 times in 18 months. Why should other post count fidels act any differently if we dropped the whole thing. It'd be back to posting things of some value to others and nothing else. Just the way most people want it to be.

Granted, there are other abuses than spamming that call for some kind of threat in order to be avoided, but spamming is by far the most common - and most disturbing - abuse on the forums IMO. And a short trip to Mingapulco has always seemed to cool down flamers, DL's and what have you. So we simply don't need post counts just in order to use reductions as a threat. That's what that swampy island is for.

	13-02-2001 05:45									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I would prefer to do without post count. I vote to do away with them.

That said, it is not an important matter for me. I am flexible enough to enjoy them for what little they are worth, and ignore what I do not like about them.

What i would really, really, really, like is a Chellspecker

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<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Lefty Scaevola (edited February 12, 2001).]</font>
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by Lefty Scaevola (edited February 12, 2001).]</font>

	13-02-2001 09:18									#18
	Put an end to popups!

Like I've said before. Just like forums help to keep people coming back to visit a website, post counts help to hook people into posting on the forum again and again.

That said....I'd like my post count reinstated....please?




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	13-02-2001 09:21									#19
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I have gone from being in favor of post count, and quite active about it (i.e. post count vote, etc.) to being totally indifferent towards post count. Funny how people change...

	13-02-2001 11:50									#20
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I'll add my vote in favor of keeping the current system. Not for any practical purpose; I just like it.

Murgatroyd

	13-02-2001 13:07									#21
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<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by Narck on 02-12-2001 11:21 PM</font>
I have gone from being in favor of post count, and quite active about it (i.e. post count vote, etc.) to being totally indifferent towards post count. Funny how people change...
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

My theory is that if you have a custom title, it doesn't matter, since the title won't change due to your post count.

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	13-02-2001 17:39									#22
	Tired of ads?

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by phoenixcager on 02-12-2001 11:18 PM</font>
Like I've said before. Just like forums help to keep people coming back to visit a website, post counts help to hook people into posting on the forum again and again.

That said....I'd like my post count reinstated....please?

<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

So phoenixcager, are you in favour of keeping the post counts or getting rid of them? I honestly can't tell from your post.

	13-02-2001 18:26									#23
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Like Paul's idea - retain titles but link to length of time since registered not post count.

	13-02-2001 21:31									#24
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If there is to be a debate or poll on post counts we should make sure that the balance of the votes/comments accurately reflects the "value" thye poster has added to the site. For example, in a poll, votes should be weighted as follows:

Diety: 10 Votes
Emperor: 5 Votes
King: 3 Votes
Prince: 2 Votes
Warlord 1 Vote
Settler Zilch

What do you think?

	14-02-2001 00:21									#25
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Hey, I'd be reduced to a mere Prince then, John-SJ!

the third idea doesn't make any sense to me

if the post counts don't influence the ranking system, we don't need them at all... at least I don't

either a time-based system or no ranks at all, that's what I say. or we keep the current one, I don't bother it.

	14-02-2001 00:26									#26
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Keep the post counts unless you can come up with something better.

	14-02-2001 00:33									#27
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I say any system is better than a post-count-based system, as the latter only encourages spam.

look at me to get an example

	14-02-2001 04:55									#28
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The suggestion from Paul and John-SJ about making the titles dependant on registration dates instead of post counts is an interesting one. One could assume it would be like taking the best from both worlds - keeping some kind of ranking system (since quite a few people seem to like that), and avoiding spam attempts to get to a higher level. It could very well be proposed as an alternative to the current system of post count ranking.

Personally, I'm instinctively against any ranking system, be it based on post quantity or registration seniority. It simply doesn't supply any real information about the person posting. But that's not to say that I wouldn't prefer ranks based on registration over post counts; given the choice, I'd go with registration because it removes the incentive for some people to spam like madmen.

For now, this is just an informal poll of whether people want to keep post counts or not. So I'll just keep updating the tally on that in my first post. Maybe later on we could have a more detailed poll on whether to keep the ranks in one form or another?

andye,
I have to respectfully disagree. Each poster's view on this matter is equally important, not to be influenced by how actively they've posted in the past.

Edit: John-SJ, would you like to cast a vote on the post count issue at this point? Just say so and you'll be included in the tally.
<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by winston (edited February 13, 2001).]</font>

	14-02-2001 05:35									#29
	Got spare money?

Sure, I'll cast my vote for no post counts.

I do believe that it will remove at least one spam incentive.

John-SJ

	14-02-2001 06:48									#30
	Get a bigger avatar today!

<center><table width=80%><tr><td><font color=000080 face="Verdana" size=2><font size="1">quote:
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1>
</font><font size=1>Originally posted by winston on 02-13-2001 07:39 AM</font>
So phoenixcager, are you in favour of keeping the post counts or getting rid of them? I honestly can't tell from your post.
<img src=/forums/"/images/blue1.gif" width=100% height=1></font></td></tr></table></center>

I'm for the post counts

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