28-06-2004 21:01									#1
	AI sneak attacks often Increase the size of your Attachments

Just a moment ago I played on a large galaxy, 7 opponents, hard. I tried a colonizing blitz and managed to colonize quite a many systems until the Elerians sneak attacked on me. I really had no fleet, so I couldn't defend at all. I grew tired and quit the game. I had even gave the Elerians tech gifts and avoided annoying them.

Was is just that I was playing with too many opponents on that galaxy and there wasn't enough room for early game expansion? This annoys me because the AI so often attacks on me during my colonizing phase. Is there any good ways to prevent AI sneak attacks in the early game?

	28-06-2004 21:22									#2
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You have to have the fleet, theres no ifs ands or buts about it. Every ai, even one you have a nap with will attack if you have no fleet.

I like it when they attack, it means I get some more planets,unless I'm in the middle of the galaxy surrounded by hostile races. That is very unpleasant.

	28-06-2004 21:50									#3
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You did not give us many details. What is your race, are the Elarians Xeno's or what? Where are you in the game?

Did those planets attacked have any defenses? At the early to mid point a good missile base and star base can hold off attackers.
Later it cannot.

Anyway, Whoha is right, if you have no shipping they will eventually come for you.

It will be later at hard than at impossible, most likely, but they will come. It is not quite like civ, in that they will come regardless of the amount of available planets.

This is different than Moo1, where they tend to wait till most of the planets are taken.

The number of players would only alter the time it occurred.

	28-06-2004 21:57									#4
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So what is your plan on getting warships up? Was it just that you were soon going to start and got caught or did you expect to not build any at all?

I am a big believer in waiting to make ships until I have to, but that point is usually after contact. I may just toss out a few missile cruiser to make them hesitate, until I can build battleships.

I have even made empty battleships to get some respect. I would rarely found a new system witout at least one ship after contact, that is just asking for it. Well I have to confess, I have not played a hard level in awhile, so it may be that you could get away then.

Post a save, I would like to see what was going on.

	28-06-2004 22:17									#5
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 So what is your plan on getting warships up? Was it just that you were soon going to start and got caught or did you expect to not build any at all?

Yep, my plan was to soon start building warships after colonizing a few star systems.

quote: I am a big believer in waiting to make ships until I have to, but that point is usually after contact. I may just toss out a few missile cruiser to make them hesitate, until I can build battleships. I have even made empty battleships to get some respect. I would rarely found a new system witout at least one ship after contact, that is just asking for it. Well I have to confess, I have not played a hard level in awhile, so it may be that you could get away then. Post a save, I would like to see what was going on.

So maybe building empty cruisers/battleships helps to prevent AI aggressiveness?

	28-06-2004 22:58									#6
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Yes the AI see hulls and counts them as your fleet. I would not make empty crusier for this purpose, but I guess you could.

I do it for battleships when I am too small to get one built if it is outfitted. Then later I will upgrade it to have weapons.

	28-06-2004 23:04									#7
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BTW you may want (in the future) use a standard zipper for such a small file, as many do not have WinRar. I had to DL it.

	28-06-2004 23:19									#8
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Quick look. I would not want to spend resources on a colony ship (CS) for Canopus. As it gets me in contact with more races at a stage that I am not really ready for it.

I would rather use the resources for something else. I am not sure if I would have founded all those systems, but I may have (Enouch & Panthera).

Now you have Enouch making another CS, for what purpose? You cannot defend another one and would be better off switching to cloner/soil/missile base (MB).

I would not be makingany CS's at this point and would want to get those cloners/soil and MB's up first.

Meklon II is making spies endlessly, but could stand to squeeze in an MB somewhere.

	28-06-2004 23:21									#9
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Winrar can write zip files too, but I use rar algorithm because it is more efficient.

	28-06-2004 23:29									#10
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Now the Elarians will get a planet without making a CS. Now I would either switch to trade and get some BC's before I lose it or rush an MB.

Since you do not have the cash to rush the MB, it is trade. This is the consequences for expanding beyond your ability to defend.
You should either have a fleet or cash before you move to planets that can be in conflict.

You would have cash, but you took -bc, I feel that is best left to experts, if anyone. It will really hurt the early game.

Now any racial picks can be use for fun, but if you are not winning at the given level, I would stay away from some picks.

Cyber is one of those picks. Here you are at T112 or so and have no ships, so what is the value of Cyber at this point? Zero.

Four picks could have done a lot of good by now. Say RHW or +R or +P or even AHW or +grow.

	28-06-2004 23:36									#11
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Man you have 5 leaders already, wow. I am use to repulsive and not having any at this time is common. Anyway, why not send one or two to a system? Enouch has a starbase and should be able to defend itself.

	28-06-2004 23:40									#12
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quote: Originally posted by logic_error Winrar can write zip files too, but I use rar algorithm because it is more efficient.

I understand, but my point is that many here will not have WinRar and not be able to do anything with it and it is only a 204KB file. I would not even zip such a small file. Why make work for a tiny saving?

	29-06-2004 00:10									#13
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I think the thing to recognize is that this race has only the uni trait to help with production. This is not a strong production race and is weak on research.

I suspect that you may conclude that a creative race is a strong research race, but it is not. You have no boost to pop and none for research, such as Aqua or Dem or others.

No +R or P or Growth. So this race wil not get research done quickly or build things quickly, until it get lots of the tech done to gain RL/Comps/Labs, then AF/Robo. It will need lots of planets to offset these lacking traits. Remember it will not be able to use the morale boosting techs.

It does have Missiles and Garrisons to use to hold off attackers early and then battlestations. So if you do get a planet and get up MB's and other defenses early you will probably be able to hold the planet.

So a slow expansion is required to give you time to get defense and finally a fleet to provide that time. Cash will help in this effort.

You will need to get AF's and RL's up asap on all new planets, this means money.

	29-06-2004 00:56									#14
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quote: Originally posted by logic_error So maybe building empty cruisers/battleships helps to prevent AI aggressiveness?

It helps indeed.
But having a fleet is not enough, you need to have it on the system you want to defend.
When I have a system so close to potential enemies, I usually bring back my empty hull scouts there.
Not only does it make the AI hesitate, but you may always refit one of them in case of urgency.

	29-06-2004 00:59									#15
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I agree with vmxa1 that cyber is a lost of picks. Esp with Uni.
Keep Cyber for non-uni races.

	29-06-2004 02:01									#16
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Uni works good for cybernetic, remember it is a slight +production pick and it allows much easier colonization, but the ship repair is far and away the most noticiable of cybernetics benefits.

	29-06-2004 02:49									#17
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quote: Originally posted by vmxa1 Since you do not have the cash to rush the MB, it is trade. This is the consequences for expanding beyond your ability to defend. You should either have a fleet or cash before you move to planets that can be in conflict.

Hey, I know, but I can't have done everything wrong. Have some mercy for my game. I kinda played this one in "fast forward" mode, but I will anyway start a new one with a slightly modified race.

quote: Now any racial picks can be use for fun, but if you are not winning at the given level, I would stay away from some picks.

I have won on hard level dozens of times. I just wanted to ask how to play defensively in the early game.

quote: Cyber is one of those picks. Here you are at T112 or so and have no ships, so what is the value of Cyber at this point? Zero.

I disagree. Cybernetic halves food and freighter demand. Since it is much easier to produce production than food, the ability to eat production is a great advantage. Why everybody misinterprets Cybernetic?

	29-06-2004 04:12									#18
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pre: I'm speaking here of pre-warp games !!!

I was a fan of Cyber.
My first impossible game, I won them with a Cyber race (uni+tol+cyber).
Now, I have learned that there are beter (re: easier) races to play.
Cyber are fun to pay, but they are not the fastest to expand.

With a cyber race you definitively need a production enhancer, otherwise you'll miss the 'expansion' wagon and you will not be able to catch up with the ohter races.
This means Uni, +prod and/or RHW.
This means a Cyber in facts cost you at least 6 picks...

As a Cyber, you will be very, heavily tempted to research Hydro (vs Bio), because with 1 you feed 4 of your citizens.
And you will be right.
But this means you will need less farmers, and this means that your Uni advantage has a lesser effect on food production. Needing 4 farmers instead of 6 on a population of 30 isn't really an 'edge'. And it makes the 6 points of the uni in fact expensive.
For this reason, I keep Cyber for non-Uni races.
Or to rephrase it: when I'm Cyber, I do not need to be Uni.

Cyber has a good advantage in an other case: you chose to be LowG.
With a lowG race, you will definitively have a food problem. For a long time, before you discover the PGG, almost only your HW will be able to provide you food. Here , the Cyber will help a lot. Build hydro everywhere, SoilE only on your HW, and that's enough.
LowG, cheap neg pick? ... yes, if you are Cyber.

Now, this being said, my best Cyber race is:
Cyber, Sub, +Prod, 50%Gr, L-A HW, LowG, -.5Food, -20ShDef

But it can't beat my current best one:
litho, sub, LA HW, LowG, -20ShDef, -10Spy.

	29-06-2004 11:24									#19
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Dude, why would ever you select Low-G?! IIRC on normal-G worlds, it gives -25% penalty on everything until you manage to research gravity generators, which come very late in the tech tree.

And one more an advantage of cybernetic: it decreases or eliminates the starvation caused by blockading.

	29-06-2004 15:16									#20
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quote: Originally posted by logic_error Dude, why would ever you select Low-G?! IIRC on normal-G worlds, it gives -25% penalty on everything until you manage to research gravity generators, which come very late in the tech tree. And one more an advantage of cybernetic: it decreases or eliminates the starvation caused by blockading.

Dear dude ,

first, as you said, this 'hurts' indeed on normalG planets. Now, considering that the really intersting planets (large, huge, R, UR) are usually HG, there is no lost of prod there (same -50% as a NG). As 1/4-1/3 of my colonies are HG, 1/5-1/4 are LowG, this puts the number of NG planets to 1/2-2/3. The difference with a NG is not that big.

second, it does not give you full 25% malus on everything. It gives you plain -25% on food & research, but not on prod. When you have enough population, the prod of the last citizens will be wasted in pollution. Your higher production will be reduced by your higher pollution, bringing a global prod reduction because of LGs to ~20%.
So it indeed hurts me on food: full 25% malus (therefore the cyber or litho).
My typical planet development is: everyone on prod and the building queue is: AF/Barracks/CC/RL/PP/SB/PS (insert HF after Barracks if cyber).
As long as the PS is not build, only my HW has scientists.
This means that I usually get the PGG a few turns after my first NG planets build the PS.

Thake a +1 prod for 3 picks and you got a +33% (w/o AF), +25% (with AF), +20% (AF+RM).
Compare it with -5 picks to have only -20% prod on half of your (non-productive) worlds for a short time. I call that cheap.

And one more advantage of cyber: even under starvation, they grow.

	29-06-2004 15:39									#21
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I think you calculated it incorrectly. The gravity penalty on production on normal-G worlds seems to be always 25% , because grav penalty is reduced first in the calculations.

On the other hand it is interesting that the penalty on high-G worlds isn't affected. Something like 75% would have been more logical.

	29-06-2004 16:17									#22
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quote: Originally posted by logic_error The gravity penalty on production on normal-G worlds seems to be always 25% , because grav penalty is reduced first in the calculations.

Yes, that's what I say.
Say on a planet you should produce brutto: 25, a lowG will produce only 20.
But... 25, means say, 1 pollution, while 20 means no pollution.
So the difference is: 20 instead of 24 = 20% (not 20 instead of 25 = 25%).

I do that also on my first colonies (the planets in the Home system). Sometimes, before I got the PP and with only 2 citizens, building a marine barrack will increase the prod by 1. But at the same time, it will also start generating pollution, losing the extra 1. So building the barracks is a waste of time.
My Home Colonies usually build AF and RL and then start housing like hell to send ppl to new systems. No need of barracks if you have less than 3 ppl.

	29-06-2004 19:36									#23
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To tell you the truth I have no respect for cyber as a serious pick. As I said any pick can be used for fun. Eating production is not a good thing. Here is a list of a consenus of good races and I do not see cyber among them.

These are not my say so these are/were commonly recommneded on the web and kali.

Unification government
Tolerant, +1 production, large
Aquatic, +1 production, +50% growth, rich, large
Aquatic, subterranean, +50% growth or +1 production
Subterranean, +1 food, +1 production, large
Creative, aquatic, large
Aquatic, omniscient, artifacts, rich, large
Aquatic, telepathic, rich, large

Democracy government
Lithovore, rich, large
Aquatic, +1 BC
Creative, aquatic

Regular government
Subterranean, Lithovore, +50% growth, large
Subterranean, aquatic, +100% growth, rich, large
Tolerant, Lithovore
Tolerant, +1 food, +2 production
Aquatic, +100% growth, +2 production, rich, large
Creative, aquatic, +1 production, artifacts, large
Creative, Lithovore, rich
Telepathic, Lithovore, artifacts, large
Telepathic, feudal, aquatic, rich, +50 ship offense, omniscient


That is a lot of races and nary a cyber to be found, there is a reason for that. The reason is that cyber races lose in MP games. The reason they lose is they eat production.

Top 5 bad picks:

Uncreative, cyber, -growth,-bc, feudal. LowG is not far behind.

I don't want to debate about cyber, there is nothing to debate. If it had been said that this was for fun, I would not have said anything. I interpreted it that this was being treated as a serious and good pick, that is why I spoke up. Individual sucess with that pick not with standing.

My point is not that you can't win with it, but that it is inferior. Any bonus for ship combat is of no value, as the AI will lose at combat anyway, since you get to pick the fights. I mean most players will be taking -SD and not be worried.

	30-06-2004 01:15									#24
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I don't mean to beat this dead horse, but I felt I should run the race with the same settings.

Since I had the saved game, I had those settings. So I played a game. It verifies what I suspected. This race is very weak on production.

That does not matter much since this is at hard level and you cannot do anything to lose. It was so easy that the AI never even stole from me, this with a -spy pick. You get to demand tribute and systems and frankly it was not even funny.

So I suspect that using this race at hard is not going to tell anyone any useful.

	30-06-2004 03:10									#25
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I took this race to impossible and got Elarians stealing right away and then they attacked me. They could only blockade my HW, but could capure/bomb the new colony by T88.

I had saved the T0 and swapped out the the traits of Cyber and -Spy and -BC for -SA, Rep and took RHW and +P.

Now by T84 I already had missile bases on both planets, 3 or 4 spies and researched N. scanners. So no steals, no attack.

The new colony had 3 pop, instead of 1. 50% more BC, nearly 100% more industry. Built are RL/AF/Bio/Hydro/Missile/Cloner, with a star bases underway. Try that with the cyber.

I had twice the reserve and tax was at 0 (cyber was 10%).

The Cyber was 2 farmers 4 workers 10 scientist
The non was 3 farmers 3 workers 10 scientist

The other colony was 0/1/0 and 0/3/0.

The funny thing was that the cyber game got the leader with 10 RP (ships) and still was losing ground in research. This is due to poor productivity and eating of some production. At times it needed some scientist to farm or do industry, that was not needed by the other race.

	30-06-2004 04:20									#26
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So far i saw 2 cyber races at kali:

the above mentioned uni tol cyber. (of course uni tol ind+1 is better but with good planets this cyber race can compete in 4ways.)

and in uni lith ban games:

dict tol ind+2 cyber is one of the strongest races.

but i never saw there cyber without tolerant.

(edit, upps: there are of course blitz races with cyber. feudal tele cyber etc...)

Last edited by siron on 30-06-2004 at 13:10

	05-07-2004 23:40									#27
	Re: AI sneak attacks often Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by logic_error Just a moment ago I played on a large galaxy, 7 opponents, hard. I tried a colonizing blitz and managed to colonize quite a many systems until the Elerians sneak attacked on me. I really had no fleet, so I couldn't defend at all. I grew tired and quit the game. I had even gave the Elerians tech gifts and avoided annoying them. Was is just that I was playing with too many opponents on that galaxy and there wasn't enough room for early game expansion? This annoys me because the AI so often attacks on me during my colonizing phase. Is there any good ways to prevent AI sneak attacks in the early game?

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elerians always seem to slack in my games