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Cookie Monster is offline Cookie Monster
King
New England
Jul 2001
time: 00:37
Arrow  Old Post 30-06-2004 20:16
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Early game - when to switch govt? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hi all,

I'm currently involved in a PBEM with 1 human and 4 ai players. the map is split into two large continents. I'm on one and my human opponent is on the other. I'm just about to discover feudalism and I have a question. I need professional help here folks.

I am the only civ still running despotism while everyone else from what I see is on monarchy. It is 370B.C. My question is this. When is a good time to switch governments? I'm currently at war with one of my ai neighbors. I have about 13 cities in place but none of them have libraries or markets yet. Been busy focusing on building up my military and temples.

What do I do now? Any advice is appreciated.

Kloreep is offline Kloreep

Emperor
of the pillow
Jun 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 21:20
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If you're going to switch to Feud, just go ahead so long as you won't lose unit production while in a war. You get 6 units supported per town (size 1-6), so assuming you haven't grown too many of your cities to city size (size 7-12) you should be fine there, which is the important thing.

Don't worry about whether you have many libs and markets when switching; Feud is better than Despotism in almost every way, including unit support if you have enough towns. Switch now unless you need production over the next several turns. Just watch your happiness while in war; Feudalism has the same War Weariness problems of Republic. But it's easier to deal with in Feudalism because you get up to 3 contentment points from Military Police. (1 more than in despotism, even. )



Monarchy can be a bit harder to transition to, but only because unit support per town is only 2, necessitating some size 7+ cities which support 4 units each. The only switch that can be hard to do is to Republic; you have to watch how many units you would be able to support (usually not many until you get some size 7+ cities) and you also have to prepare for the hit to happiness because of the loss of Military Police ability.

Aqualung71 is offline Aqualung71
Emperor
Lord Desolator of the Desolation Row, C3CDG
Oct 2002
time: 12:37
  Old Post 30-06-2004 22:03
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It all depends really. Do you have Monarchy or Republic available? How long do you intend being at war? What level are you playing at and which civ?

As Kloreep says, Feudalism gives you better unit support, but because you need to keep a good part of your empire under size 6 to get the free support, over the longer term Monarchy is almost always better and has no war weariness. Republic can also provide a boost, but not before you've got a few size 7 cities and preferably some luxuries connected.

Of course, both Monarchy and Republic are optional techs, so unless you have these or can trade for them, your immediate choice is limited.

One piece of advice though - never switch governments during a war, unless you can end it quickly or have plenty of units to repulse any possible counter-attacks during the period of anarchy. And if you are building a wonder and are nearly finished, again, delay your government switch or you may miss out on it.

Depending on which civ you are playing,m it may also be worthwhile switching your Temple builds over to Libraries.

Cookie Monster is offline Cookie Monster
King
New England
Jul 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 01:16
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Good advice gentlemen, thanks.

Aqualung71:

Here are my choices -> Monarchy haven't discovered any other government. Game is set at monarch level, I'm the Chinese.

I can definately end the war immediately as I am winning it so maybe now is the time to do that and switch to monarchy.

Dauphin is offline Dauphin
Emperor
Caught in a tuna net
Jan 1970
time: 05:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 02:01
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I find Monarchy to more useful than Republic if you have any reasonable size of army or have a war on the horizon. The extra trade from Republic is too easily eaten up by unit support unless you have a larger number of trade multipliers or corruption reducers (marketplaces, libraries, courthouses). Plus Monarchy's martial law can save money that would be spent on keeping Republic's people happy.

Dominae is offline Dominae
Emperor

Jan 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 02:05
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Switch immediately to Monarchy.

Vince278 is offline Vince278
King

Dec 2002
time: 05:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 09:49
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I've spent entire games on Republic.

CyberShy is offline CyberShy

Emperor
Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 11:47
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I always take Monarchy as soon as it's available.

dannubis is offline dannubis
Chieftain
Ghent
Apr 2002
time: 06:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 14:20
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monarchy all the way !!!

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 22:21 Visit Dis's homepage!
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I always take Republic over monarchy. Unless I'm in a war or something. But I never research monarchy anymore.

Solomwi is offline Solomwi

King
Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Dec 2002
time: 23:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 22:54
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In the safest piece of advice I've ever posted:

WHAT DOM SAID!

Dominae is offline Dominae
Emperor

Jan 2002
time: 00:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 23:04
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Why is turning into a Monarchy versus Republic debate? Given Cookie Monster's situation, I think the clear option is to switch out of Despotism right away. Or are you Republic supporters implying that he should wait to trade for or research Republic and bypass Monarchy entirely?

Solomwi is offline Solomwi

King
Don King of the Apolyton HLA Movement
Dec 2002
time: 23:37
  Old Post 01-07-2004 23:27
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CM, generally the best move is to switch out of despotism the turn you learn a new government. There are a few exceptions to this, though:

1. Close to finishing a wonder in a somewhat tight race. That is, a race in which you know you have the wonder if you just keep on at this pace, but switching will cause you to lose it. Typically not a big issue, for me, as I don't even worry about wonders in the Ancient (ex. SoZ).

2. As has been mentioned, at war and can't afford the downtime, production wise. One more reason it's best to fight a war in your enemy's borders.

3. You've decided, as Dom mentioned, to go directly to Gov't A and for whatever reason get Gov't B instead. Of course, then a re-thinking is needed. If it still looks better to wait, so be it.

4. You're a masochist and would also enjoy being stuck on a 100% tundra island and play out such a start on Sid.

Obviously, being religious means switch ASAP in 99% of situations.

Aqualung71 is offline Aqualung71
Emperor
Lord Desolator of the Desolation Row, C3CDG
Oct 2002
time: 12:37
  Old Post 02-07-2004 07:17
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Under the circumstances, I would almost certainly switch to Monarchy immediately unless there was a way of getting Republic very quickly and my empire was setup correctly to take advantage of a Republican governmet (which is unlikely).

Bottom line - if you have Monarchy and Feudalism available, switch to Monarchy.

This will enable you to start irrigating those grasslands (bnous grasslands first!) and boost your growth rate....using those super charged industrious Chinese workers

However, one proviso: you've said you are winning the war. Depending on how far the war is from your lands, it may be worthwhile delaying your governmeny switch and continuing the war to take a few more AI cities....this will weaken the AI considerably and provide you with a stronger core to build up in peace time. Being Militaristic, you may even generate some MGL's using this strategy, and then you can rush build your FP. Of course, if you have a strong enough army that you don't really need to build any more units to continue the war, switch to Monarchy immediately anyway At monarchy difficulty level, your anarchy shouldn't be too long.

Last edited by Aqualung71 on 02-07-2004 at 07:26

Vince278 is offline Vince278
King

Dec 2002
time: 05:37
  Old Post 02-07-2004 08:49
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I ignore the Monarchy track and beeline for Republic. I usually can trade for those ignored techs anyway.

CyberShy is offline CyberShy

Emperor
Delft, The Netherlands
Mar 1999
time: 06:37
  Old Post 02-07-2004 10:49
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Never switch governament in your golden age!
That's a truely waste of golden age benefits!

Cookie Monster is offline Cookie Monster
King
New England
Jul 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 02-07-2004 20:18
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Well I've been reading everything you all have been saying and I thought that I'd at least give an update on my current situation.

I have concluded the war winning on ai city and 10 gold from my enemy. That is all he had to offer.

Upon conclusion of the war I immediately entered anarchy. It will take 9 turns to get out of anarchy and pick a new government. Still haven't gotten republic so monarchy it is. I plan on waging war on another nearby neighbor afterwards as he has no iron. Currently only 5 turns to go until the switch is made.

Meanwhile I haven't discovered the location of my one human opponent yet but it's safe to say I have contacted all of the ai players. I've switched many of my citizens to scientists and am now 3 turns away from discovering feudalism despite being in anarchy. It is currently 250B.C.

Time is getting tight as I need to continue my oscillating war ASAP to make sure I am stronger than my human opponent when I contact him.

My conclusion in this particular case is monarchy is the way to go since I plan on waging at least 2 more short wars in the near future. Also I only have 2 luxuries so republic would be challenging to manage in wartime.

Shogun Gunner is offline Shogun Gunner

Emperor
Potomac Falls, Virginia
Oct 2000
time: 00:37
  Old Post 02-07-2004 20:26 Visit Shogun Gunner<br><a href=/members><img src=/forums/images/supporter-icon.gif border=0></a><BR>'s homepage!
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DESPOTISM to MONARCY to REPUBLIC as soon as each is available.

Unless you are playing religious trait, then perhaps a switch to Democracy.

MrWhereItsAt is offline MrWhereItsAt
Emperor
New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:37
  Old Post 04-07-2004 06:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
DESPOTISM to MONARCY to REPUBLIC as soon as each is available.

Unless you are playing religious trait, then perhaps a switch to Democracy.


This is a bit of a waste, IMO. Especially as you get to Regent and above, there are a sizeable number of turns of Anarchy, so you want to ideally have no more than about 2 changes per game. You should choose which of Rep or Mon (or Feud) you want early on and get that one. Ignore the other one(s) until you can pick the tech(s) up for cheap later on. My situation would have to be pretty odd for me to go Monarchy on the way to Rep. If you get Mon first, don;t change until you can really afford it, but you should really just go for Rep and stay in Despotism until you are secure enough early on to change to Rep. After that changing govs should only come during or immediately before wars, when the unit support or lack of ww is needed badly enough.

Aqualung71 is offline Aqualung71
Emperor
Lord Desolator of the Desolation Row, C3CDG
Oct 2002
time: 12:37
  Old Post 04-07-2004 07:04
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9 turns of anarchy at monarchy difficulty?!

Now that is rotten luck!

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:37
  Old Post 04-07-2004 07:30 Visit Dis's homepage!
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how do you tell how many turns you have. but it does seem you have more anarchy as you go up in levels.

One reason I love religious civs. But you are taking away another useful trait by doing that. There are so many other good ones. Industrious, scientific, commercial. even agricultural.

vmxa1 is offline vmxa1
Deity
Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:37
  Old Post 04-07-2004 07:59
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Check with the advisor and he will tell you how long before you get control.

As a non-religious civ it is very hard to switch for me at any level above emporer.

I just did a Demi and could not justify a switch until around 500AD and then only to Monarchy. I stayed there until I launched.

The loss of 6 to 9 turns is just to painful. I waited until I had no wonder event and was too slow to be first to the next tech.

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:37
  Old Post 05-07-2004 04:22 Visit Dis's homepage!
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you launched as spaceship, and I assume won the game in a monarchy?

vmxa1 is offline vmxa1
Deity
Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:37
  Old Post 05-07-2004 08:15
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Yup, IIRC I won my last Sid game with that gov as well. It is fine if you want support and no WW.

Dis is offline Dis
Emperor
Las Vegas, Nevada
Feb 2000
time: 21:37
  Old Post 05-07-2004 08:23 Visit Dis's homepage!
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how do you go about research and obtaining the techs necessary to finish the spaceship?

vmxa1 is offline vmxa1
Deity
Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:37
  Old Post 05-07-2004 08:48
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Got spare money?

In this game I use CxxC and mined every tile that was not desert or had wheat. IOW I was very productive.

I could not keep up in research after a time as my land was not large enough, so I did two things.

One was to research things they did not and trade it. Two was to steal from time to time.

Later I got enough land, but stuck with the same plan, so I could make more troops.

BTW I had a lot of coastal towns, so harbors provided lots of food. After Ibuilt a few hospitals, I did have to irrigate a few more tiles, but I had Hydros and such to boost shields.

Last edited by vmxa1 on 05-07-2004 at 08:53

Cookie Monster is offline Cookie Monster
King
New England
Jul 2001
time: 00:37
  Old Post 05-07-2004 08:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Aqualung71
9 turns of anarchy at monarchy difficulty?!

Now that is rotten luck!


Rotten luck indeed. I'm playing on Monarch level and at the time of the switch I had 14 cities.

1 size 8
1 size 6
2 size 4
1 size 3
4 size 2
the rest size 1

I'm sure empire and city sizes had something to do with the amount of time for the switch. Maybe it takes time setting up a new government!

vmxa1 is offline vmxa1
Deity
Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:37
  Old Post 05-07-2004 08:57
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I doubt time is a factor. I have seen from as low as 4 turns to 9 with more or less the same empires on the top 4 levels.

I can't really speak to monarch level any more, but I doubt it makes any difference.

MrWhereItsAt is offline MrWhereItsAt
Emperor
New Year's Resolution: 2005 is the year of Where It's At - come get some.
Nov 2001
time: 17:37
  Old Post 05-07-2004 15:35
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quote:
Originally posted by vmxa1

One was to research things they did not and trade it. Two was to steal from time to time.


Do you mean like oscillating war and then suing for Peace + techs, or was this that far on that spies were around (and you decided they were worth the expense! )?

vmxa1 is offline vmxa1
Deity
Oviedo, Fl
Nov 2001
time: 21:37
  Old Post 06-07-2004 00:13
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No techs for peace, once the Hittites declared they got eliminated. The English eventually I gave peace straight up or maybe they gave me a few buck, nothing major. The very early wars, I had the tech lead or the GL.

The English did not lose much, a few units they landed and two or three stacks of ships (one was a carrier). I never sent troops to their land.

Anyway I was never more than one or two techs behind. In fact behind is probably not even correct as I would get a tech that they did not have, such as Ecology or the ones leading to Cure for Cancer wonders. They stuck to techs that yield space parts.

I would go hard for another tech, then drop to zero to raise cash for a steal, if I could not trade. Most of those techs are easy to trade and I often got a lux as well. This is because I never had more than 3 of my own.

I started steal a bit before I built the IA. After it was built I planted spies and used them to steal.

The world wide war did not break out until very very late. I had even been gracious most fo the time, which is very unusal for me.
I normally ignore the AI for the last half of the game, but I just did not have the land.

One bonus from trading ecology to all way to get the environment in better shape than I normally see it and hence no global warming ever occurred.

 
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