01-07-2004 07:12									#31
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You missed the part where Newton spent 15 years on theological problems.

You could also mention the numerous 20th century physicists who had the oddest beliefs. None of which makes a difference.

	01-07-2004 07:15									#32
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What Newton had verifiable experimental (or, in the case of the law of gravitation, observational) evidence for remains as good an approximation as is needed for almost any physics problem you're likely to encounter in your everyday life.

And Faraday's contributions to classical EM are still taught today to juniors studying physics.

	01-07-2004 07:22									#33
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse You missed the part where Newton spent 15 years on theological problems. You could also mention the numerous 20th century physicists who had the oddest beliefs. None of which makes a difference.

I was concentrating on the alchemy- I could have mentioned the theology, but the transmutation of base metal into gold was less likely to drag Obi Gyn away from his icon screen, belching clouds of incense and anathematizing Copernican astronomy. I thought I was running a risk with the Sandemanian thing, but presumably that's a flavour Obi Gyn hasn't tried yet.

There's also 'Soviet' science and Nazi science, and ice pick prefrontal lobotomies, but I like Christian Science- the one that says illness is all in the mind.

"One day, mulling over the problem at home, Freeman remembered that the apple-corer had been a source of inspiration for Moniz, and began to rummage through the contents of his kitchen drawers. Soon he found precisely what he was looking for: a cheap, mass produced ice pick for stabbing pieces of ice off large commercial blocks. Normally used for making cold drinks on hot summer days, it now made its debut as an instrument for brain surgery. "

http://www.lobotomy.info/adventures.html


Blame Canada. It saves time.

	01-07-2004 07:31									#34
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um, sorry, but there is no dictionary at hand and i got no idea what Paradigm means, could some one enlighten me?

	01-07-2004 07:32									#35
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What do you people think of City of Heroes? What server are you on?

	01-07-2004 07:39									#36
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Wasn't Paradigm City the name of the domed city in that one goofily-named giant robot anime on cartoon network? Y'know, the one with the android butler, or something?

Edit: Ayuh, that's the name of the city in Big O. I can't believe I forgot the name of the show, especially given its catchy theme song...

Big O! Big O, Big O, Big O!
Big O! Big O, Big O, Big O!

quote: Originally posted by anti patriot um, sorry, but there is no dictionary at hand and i got no idea what Paradigm means, could some one enlighten me?

Paradigm:

1. One that serves as a pattern or model.
2. A set or list of all the inflectional forms of a word or of one of its grammatical categories: the paradigm of an irregular verb.
3. A set of assumptions, concepts, values, and practices that constitutes a way of viewing reality for the community that shares them, especially in an intellectual discipline.

I think that they're talking about some goofy philosophical thingamawhatsit, though, and so their failure to define the term implies to me that we're not supposed to participate in or intrude on their discussion. Such is life.

	01-07-2004 07:40									#37
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger Wasn't Paradigm City the name of the domed city in that one goofily-named giant robot anime on cartoon network? Y'know, the one with the android butler, or something?

That was a wierd show. I liked it though.

	01-07-2004 07:40									#38
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I especially liked when Aggie said:

quote: Donald Davidson proved that paradigms were a load of hooey in his paper On the Very Idea of a Conceptual Scheme.

"proved"

	01-07-2004 07:46									#39
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quote: Originally posted by loinburger I think that they're talking about some goofy philosophical thingamawhatsit, though, and so their failure to define the term implies to me that we're not supposed to participate in or intrude on their discussion. Such is life.

hmm, ok then

	01-07-2004 14:40									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Flinx Yes and no. Maybe more no. Try this question first: How Do You Know What You Know?

I think, therefore I am.

	01-07-2004 15:45									#41
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse I especially liked when Aggie said: quote: Donald Davidson proved that paradigms were a load of hooey in his paper On the Very Idea of a Conceptual Scheme. "proved"

Pretty much. It amazes me that someone so ignorant of contemporary philosophy to have endorsed a Cartesian conception of mind (yes you did – and it was hilarious) would comment on something he knows zero about.

Davidson has quite the elegant argument.

As for Newton: he was mocked by contemporaries for the seemingly absurd notion of "action at a distance".

And as for knowledge - warranted belief may be more useful than mere belief, but it isn't knowledge.

	01-07-2004 21:06									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon As for Newton: he was mocked by contemporaries for the seemingly absurd notion of "action at a distance".

Action at a distance is still abhorred.

That's why there's no gravity in GR. Curvature in the spacetime continuum. Absolutely masterful.

	01-07-2004 21:26									#43
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This thread has taken a bad turn somewhere along the way, and has become all too serious

	01-07-2004 23:07									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Pretty much. It amazes me that someone so ignorant of contemporary philosophy to have endorsed a Cartesian conception of mind (yes you did – and it was hilarious) would comment on something he knows zero about. Davidson has quite the elegant argument. As for Newton: he was mocked by contemporaries for the seemingly absurd notion of "action at a distance". And as for knowledge - warranted belief may be more useful than mere belief, but it isn't knowledge.

You guys specialise in the art of BS. I really loved how the first paper you pointed me to to demonstrate what "real" philosophers do had numerous mistakes merely in the abstract.

Philosophy is quite possibly the most useless, self-aggrandising discipline in academe today.

	01-07-2004 23:10									#45
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Come on, Aggie. Show the evidence for what you believe. Why do you think that Descarte's dualism is ridiculous? Is it anything other than convention or do you have something to back you up?

Plilosophers:

Historians:

Scientists:

Mathematicians:

	01-07-2004 23:11									#46
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Artists:

	01-07-2004 23:27									#47
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historians

philosophers

uncultured scientists

loading up on bad carbs with a cream-cheese stuffed pretzel for lunch

	01-07-2004 23:28									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon God you physicists talk a load of **** that doesn't even add up to a smidgum of knowledge.

Physicists' research has resulted in a lot more actual benefit to society than philosophers'

	01-07-2004 23:32									#49
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Models

	01-07-2004 23:32									#50
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quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Come on, Aggie. Show the evidence for what you believe. Why do you think that Descarte's dualism is ridiculous? Is it anything other than convention or do you have something to back you up?

Because it's a wheel that turns nothing. There is no a priori reason to assume an insuperable barrier between the mental and the physical that prevents physicalist explanations of conciousness.

And that isn't what you were talking about at the time. You were talking about Cartesian privacy, stating that the foundation of human knowledge rests on private, experienced states which are somehow prior to scientific theorizing.

That view has been rejected in favour of naturalized accounts of epistemology. These reject the notion of hypothesized entities such as sense data or mental states in favour of reconciling our talk of intentional states (beliefs, desires, etc.) with the physical reality of the brain. Some philosophers, called eliminativsts, think we should go even further and reject intentional states as mere "folk psychology".

It's painfully obvious that you have little idea of what philosophers actually do these days.

	02-07-2004 01:09									#51
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"Paradigm" has become a buzzword. AFAIK, it was Thomas Kuhn who popularized it. For those of you who want to have a better idea of what he meant by "paradigm", read the poscript to "The structure of scientific revolutions". And if that's not clear enough, check out Paul Hoyningen-Huene's
"Reconstructing Scientific Revolutions".

	02-07-2004 01:14									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Some philosophers, called eliminativsts, think we should go even further and reject intentional states as mere "folk psychology".

But they're a minority. Even Stich is not longer an eliminativist.

	02-07-2004 01:51									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Because it's a wheel that turns nothing. There is no a priori reason to assume an insuperable barrier between the mental and the physical that prevents physicalist explanations of conciousness. And that isn't what you were talking about at the time. You were talking about Cartesian privacy, stating that the foundation of human knowledge rests on private, experienced states which are somehow prior to scientific theorizing. That view has been rejected in favour of naturalized accounts of epistemology. These reject the notion of hypothesized entities such as sense data or mental states in favour of reconciling our talk of intentional states (beliefs, desires, etc.) with the physical reality of the brain. Some philosophers, called eliminativsts, think we should go even further and reject intentional states as mere "folk psychology". It's painfully obvious that you have little idea of what philosophers actually do these days.

and it would seem that analytic philosophers dont care much about, and arent relevant to, the folk.

	02-07-2004 01:52									#54
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I read Kuhn eons ago, when the world was young Im not equipped to critique it as philosophy - my impression was that it was fairly powerful as a statement about the history of science.

	02-07-2004 01:56									#55
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Great. I try to make philosophy look good and the continentalists come in.

	02-07-2004 02:20									#56
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a very interesting essay by Richard Rorty, on analytical and continental philosophy, that touches on Kuhn, Davidson, and other topics mentioned in this thread.


http://www.stanford.edu/~rrorty/analytictrans.htm

	02-07-2004 02:25									#57
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Rorty? The end is nigh....

	02-07-2004 02:33									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon of the brain. Some philosophers, called eliminativsts, think we should go even further and reject intentional states as mere "folk psychology".

They write it and say it. Whether they think it I have no idea. Unless "think" is merely a word that refers to a particular variety of such acts. Though I dont beleive it is.

	02-07-2004 02:34									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Rorty? The end is nigh....

and the last man, as well.

	02-07-2004 02:39									#60
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quote: Originally posted by MrFun historians philosophers uncultured scientists

So is philosophy culture or knowlegde?