01-07-2004 09:33									#1
	No Spoils of War in this game Got spare money?

If you look at the custom set-up here you'll see that Spoils of War is disabled.

That means that we don't get a tech every time we capture a base (or even the maps if no tech available)

It wasn't in the last game 'cos the CyBorgs were in it, and that's their faction advantage.

I don't recall any discussion this time round (but then I was anticipating being a Morganite, so didn't care less)

Do we care? Is it an issue? (Prolly too late now)

G.

	01-07-2004 09:39									#2
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Oh well, we'll probe the tech if we need it bad. Besides, in order to have a bleeding edge offensive force, we need to have the good techs before we go on a rampage to take bases. Certainly it's a disadvantage to us, but I don't think it'll cripple us too much - it mustn't, since it's really too late to change now. We'll just have to manage.

	01-07-2004 10:00									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Nothing we can really do now.
Still, probing can work.

	01-07-2004 12:38									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

It's off by default IIRC. Since there was no call for it to be switched on, it was left off. On a side point, it, IMHO, gives an out of proportion advantage to momentum playing factions. It would especially harm the angels, as it reduces the value of their special abilities.

	01-07-2004 18:09									#5
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Well, it could be counter-argued that not having it harms us, as relatively easy military conquest is one of our faction's abilities that others lack

But it's too late now anyway.

Sparta as a Hybrid anyone??

	01-07-2004 22:23									#6
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Drogue It's off by default IIRC. Since there was no call for it to be switched on, it was left off.

It was discussed shortly from this post to this post. A majority seemed in favour of allowing spoils of war, so I included it in the summary of rules in the "State of the Next Game" thread, which I assumed buster based himself on to make this game. So how did not getting spoils of war happen? I'm kinda surprised to see the rule is not on.

quote: On a side point, it, IMHO, gives an out of proportion advantage to momentum playing factions.

Have you already played with many momentum factions in PBEMs?

(I haven't, so my opinion doesn't count for much, but I've heard many SMAC veterans say an early rover rush doesn't pay off on the longterm if you have multiple opponents and can only take out one with a rush, so I don't immediately see why it would be overpowering. )

quote: It would especially harm the angels, as it reduces the value of their special abilities.

And as Googlie says now it reduces our special ability: conquest.

quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia since it's really too late to change now

quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Nothing we can really do now.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie But it's too late now anyway.

Apparently there is still a problem with the Morganites not getting their 100 initial credits or so. So while that needs to be fixed anyway, why couldn't spoils of war be activated as well? AFAIK and IIRC it's simply opening the scenario the game is based on, go into the 'scenario' menu and change the game rules there somewhere. So if we wanted to press this issue of fixing a rule that seemed to be accepted by most who cared to comment, we could without causing too much troubles or delay IMHO. But of course, if I'm wrong and it does require lots of work, it's not that important IMHO.

	02-07-2004 02:15									#7
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Point taken, perhaps it's not too late yet. You have dealt with the probe rover retroengineering mishap too, could you bring this up as well?

	02-07-2004 02:16									#8
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It wouldn't require much work at all - in fact, Kody could do it single handedly between turns, or if we are indeed restarting, then it's ten minutes work for Buster (or an equally competent assistant CMN)

G.

	02-07-2004 06:06									#9
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quote: It wouldn't require much work at all - in fact, Kody could do it single handedly between turns

Umm do what? I can change passwords and trade bases etc. If you're talking game settings I can't do that yet, although if you guys really want it I could give it try.

Method or Drogue is handling the restart. If you hurry maybe you could get changes made, although I don't think people want another poll to lag the restart of the game.

	02-07-2004 06:24									#10
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I meant it was too late from a "we didn't bring the issue up until the game had actually started" point of view. However Maniac has pointed out that was not correct, so I say if we can get the rule changed then that would be good.

	02-07-2004 07:06									#11
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Not in my hands, as it isn't a clear cut issue. I'm narrator remember.

Also I'm inclined to side with Drogue that you're asking for too much of an advantage. Although if you convince Drogue, then it's all good.

Last edited by Kody on 02-07-2004 at 07:13

	02-07-2004 15:52									#12
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Maniac It was discussed shortly from this post to this post. A majority seemed in favour of allowing spoils of war, so I included it in the summary of rules in the "State of the Next Game" thread, which I assumed buster based himself on to make this game. So how did not getting spoils of war happen? I'm kinda surprised to see the rule is not on.

A couple of posts, not really a full blown consensus, IMHO, and buster did the map using default, normal rules, with the exception of ones he knew to look for.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Have you already played with many momentum factions in PBEMs?

No, but I haven't played many PBEMs.

quote: Originally posted by Maniac And as Googlie says now it reduces our special ability: conquest.

No. Your special ability is conquest. The game is playtested for default rules, and the no-techsteal seems fairest, IMHO. It could be said to harm one team with it on, and one with it off, therefore we go to the default settings. Even when I was a Spartan I was against allowing it, because it is a huge bonus, unbalancing IMHO. During times of war (which, lets face it, will likely be often playing momentum Spartans), it means you don't need research, because you steal everything. It helping you that much is a reason not to have it. It takles away from Angels ability, and adds to yours, away from the default rulings, which, IMHO, are quite fair.

Moreover, the game has been started, and I am only willing to change the settings if all factions agree. If a faction objects, we stick with what buster deemed was fair and usual, as well as what we voted for. I don't consider techsteal on to be a normal rule, unless specifically asked for (I've never played with it on).

	02-07-2004 18:31									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

So be it then - it'll make our victory that much sweeter

GGLIE

	02-07-2004 18:31									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

(Course it also means that we won't lose a tech if we happen to lose a base, so there's a flipside too)

Last edited by Googlie on 02-07-2004 at 18:40

	02-07-2004 18:40									#15
	Put an end to popups!

You're assuming the turn will get around to you googlie.

Poly lag again...

	02-07-2004 20:37									#16
	Got spare money?

If it makes you feel better I would like to say that you are not the only teams that have wanted something but didn't get. Actually far from the only one.

So, now it is the time to prove yourself that you can win no matter what.

	04-07-2004 04:43									#17
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I always play with spoils off, but I admit, it would be nice to have in this game . We'll have to make do.

	02-10-2004 10:15									#18
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Originally posted by Maniac
Have you already played with many momentum factions in PBEMs?

quote: Originally posted by Drogue No, but I haven't played many PBEMs.

Well. Then that seems like an opinion of experience...

quote: Originally posted by Drogue No. Your special ability is conquest. ...

And another fallacy...

quote: Originally posted by Drogue ... During times of war (which, lets face it, will likely be often playing momentum Spartans), it means you don't need research, because you steal everything. ...

Making such an assumption is a huge mistake, not to mention, a very narrow minded way of playing the Spartan faction. I guess Drogue has not played against human controlled opponents too much.



Too bad I wasn't around back then. I would have easily shot this post full of holes...


No offence intended.
Just pointing certain things out, and voicing my opinion...

	02-10-2004 16:06									#19
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quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader Well. Then that seems like an opinion of experience...

For PBEMs, no. For Democracy Games, yes.

quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader And another fallacy...

Yes posted by a Spartan. You did see what I was quoting, being Maniac saying: "And as Googlie says now it reduces our special ability: conquest". I didn't state it was your special ability, the Spartan's themselves did.

quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader Making such an assumption is a huge mistake, not to mention, a very narrow minded way of playing the Spartan faction. I guess Drogue has not played against human controlled opponents too much.

I wasn't making that assumption, I was stating that if spoils of war were on, this game would be heavily biased in the direction of the Spartans. With better weaponry and worse industry, you cannot deny the Spartans have an advantage over others when it comes to conquest. I'd also like to point out that the person who designed the map, buster, is one of the most experienced PBEMs on the site. There were oodles of polls before for what the map should be like, as everyone voiced their opinion, then buster took that away and created the map and rules. AFAIK, these rules are very common and usual for PBEMs, but regardless, these are the rules that we usually use for Democracy Games.

If this was voiced strongly at the begining, it would have been polled and decided. My bet is that all the other teams would have seen it as an unfair Spartan advantage, as I do, and thus voted against. Moreover, as I said at the start, rules will not be changed midway through the game. Everyone plays according to what the rules started as, to shift the goalposts would be inappropriate.

	03-10-2004 02:49									#20
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I had a "feeling" that I would get a response...

quote: Originally posted by Drogue For PBEMs, no. For Democracy Games, yes.

Okay great. Glad to hear it.
You have that on me.

quote: Originally posted by Drogue You did see what I was quoting, being Maniac saying: "And as Googlie says now it reduces our special ability: conquest". I didn't state it was your special ability, the Spartan's themselves did.

Yes I did. But what struck me; was that you continued with the same "missconception", instead of pointing it out. (I'm assuming that your some kind of referee in the private forums here, thus would be aware of such things.).

quote: Originally posted by Drogue I wasn't making that assumption, I was stating that if spoils of war were on, this game would be heavily biased in the direction of the Spartans. With better weaponry and worse industry, you cannot deny the Spartans have an advantage over others when it comes to conquest.

That's what I figured. To expand on what I was saying is; that there is more than one way to play any particular faction. Especially taking one out of it's "stereotype" - can lead to quite spectacular discoveries.

Concerning the Spartans (in multi-player games); unless they start with a target (and being not the Hive) close by, conquest is not a viable option. Not if you want to last beyond the early-middle-game.

Since this game has been so well set-up. Then chances are practically non-existant that the Spartan faction would have derived much (if any) advantage to tech/steal when capturing a base.


The rest of your post I am not disputing. I reside at CGN, and am familiar with buster. As for what transpired before I got here, is beyond my control. As for the rules; I am in no way asking to change them.

:rockon: